Rajendram: My brother is of sound mind

The youngest out of six siblings of embattled lawyer VK Lingam has come out to defend his older brother V Thirunama Karasu saying he is of ‘sound health and good mind’.

In an exclusive interview with Malaysiakini yesterday, V Rajendram, 49, said Lingam’s accusation that Thirunama was insane was the last straw.

"The reason why I’m giving a statement is to (rebut), totally nullify the assertions, allegations, lies asserted by VK Lingam about Thirunama Karasu.

"Both Lingam and Thirunama are my brothers. It is with great sadness that I have to verify the truth. Thirunama to my knowledge, to date, is of sound health and good mind," he said.

Admitting that he does not have first hand evidence of corruption by Lingam or judges, the freelance banking consultant said whatever he knew of any alleged corruption came from Thirunama.

In Rajendram’s statement, he divulged details of how Thirunama had since 1997 confided in him concerning the alleged errands he ran for Lingam and the alleged corruption that was happening.

He also claimed that Lingam has lied to him on many occasions and was behind several threats received from various individuals.

While Thirunama is due to testify on Monday at the royal commission, Rajendram was rejected as one of PKR de facto leader Anwar Ibrahim’s ‘secret witness’.

Below are excepts from the interview:

When did you first hear about the video tape?

It came out in the paper. I still didn’t go to the Internet. I’m not like, ‘I must know this.’ I watched the video in December with Thirunama.

When the royal commission was set up, did you decide from the start that you wanted to testify?

I decided on Nov 21 (last year) the day my brother said publicly that my other brother is mad. This is the day I put my foot down. It’s very clear. You can talk about justice. I said, ‘Keep on doing it.’ But the breaking line came on November 21 when you said the other brother is mad.

So this is out of your own initiative?

Nobody told me to do this. I’m not a lawyer. I’m not a member of any political party. I’m not DAP, I’m not in (any of the) Barisan Nasional (parties), I’m not in MIC, I’m not in Keadilan. But where it is necessary, I’ll serve justice by coming (as a witness). Keadilan did not come to me. I thought I wanted to serve justice.

How did you came to be associated with de facto PKR leader Anwar Ibrahim and how you came to be one of his ‘secret’ witnesses?

Maybe my legal advisors [...] if I were to put in my testimony at the royal commission, I’d have to engage a lawyer. I can’t be going to the royal commission everyday. This issue, ok, I’m a secret witness. What about it? I don’t know Anwar. Have I met him? No, I’ve never met him. I’ve never met Tun Mahathir (Mohamad). They (PKR) managed to get me. They are aggressive.

Do you know why Lingam said Thirunama is of unsound mind?

I think the train (sic) of events will speak for itself. I was back from the UK on Dec 24, 1997, I was taken to Value Inn, a hotel in Klang by my sister Kanakalashimi. At the hotel all the members of my family including former Industrial Court chairperson **** (name given).

They were surprised I turned up at the hotel. I only had the opportunity to tell everyone present, "please don’t harm, persecute or crucify Thirunama" and I left. Later, Thirunama told me that they are making him sign a statutory declaration and a commissioner of oaths is on the way. I said to him, "Don’t do it. Don’t sign anything and just get out and run for your life".

All the things he has said in the police report, he has told me. In fact he tells me, ‘See these documents’ but I just refuse to see it. I don’t want to see it. If I see it I have to lodge a complaint or I have to personally confront my family members on the matter.

Why did you choose to come out now?

Frankly, I come out now because everybody is attacking Thirunama. I don’t care who you are [...] you don’t do this to another fellow human being. Simple as that.

Have you watched the tape?

Yes. Sometime in December (last year) with Karasu.

So you’ve seen the 14 minute tape?

Yes.

What about the new one?

No, I haven’t.

Exactly what kind of lies is Lingam allegedly saying to the commission? You mentioned he has been lying to the royal commission about Thirunama’s mental health.

All these Tuns and Tan Sris and Dato Seris, my opinion is to save your own bl**dy skins. Simple. There’s a few things I don’t like. Assassins, cowards, and tainted angels. You make a hundred million, they’ll come and shake your hand. They want a share of the pie. They’ll use you and cannibalise you. Now they tak tahu (don’t know) you, lah. Tak tahu. I tak tahu. Dia mabuk. India mabuk. (He’s drunk. The Indian’s drunk). Ya lah.

So you’re saying it’s not just Dato Lingam who’s telling lies?

Use your imagination. You all are learned. You read ‘Animal Farm’ (book by George Orwell). You read all these books. Don’t you all? I’m sure you had good teachers. One person, Lingam - just an advocate and solicitor. He’s signing the judgment, you see? Is he signing the judgment? Who’s holding judgement? What happened to (late journalist) MGG Pillai’s case?

You’ve been rejected as a witness at the royal commission. Do you feel disappointed?

I feel disappointed, but I think the end of the matter is, I think I’ve said it. I’ll repeat myself. The bench must have integrity. People who serve the country and do justice, follow the rule of law. Then only can you call upon the bar on ... The advocate and solicitor will tow the line. To have professionalism, to have ethics. You’re corrupted ... Your master is corrupted, what more an advocate. They also will join in. Everyone will beat the drum.

Tell us about meeting Mohd Shafee Abdullah in his house.

I was told that (Shafee) wanted to find me a job and I believe. To my surprise, Shafee was going left to right about Vincent Tan. He mentioned so many esteemed names like (senior lawyer) Raja Aziz Addruse, (former judge) KC Vohrah and all that. He said these people are interested, they want to meet up. He mentioned corruption but I know zero. I even threw in the names of other people. What about (former judge) Shankar Mahadev (sic), (former Lord President) Tun Suffian (Hashim). He (Shafee) just kept quiet. Then I asked why not (DAP chairperson) Karpal Singh and he said ‘Don’t don’t don’t, Karpal Singh, (DAP leader) Lim Kit Siang will blow up the issue’. (I mentioned these names because they appear suitable to) ascertain the truth.

I also approached (my brother) Sivaparanjothi and told him that these things are going on, he told me that if I take on people in high position they would finish off Thirunama and they will finish me off also.

So Thirunama solely confided in you?

It came to that situation. Look at this lah, nobody has come forward in the family to protect him. To me is I don’t care, lah, you all are my brothers and sisters but there are certain things I don’t allow, lah. Of course, if he is seeing Shafee or Tommy Thomas, I don’t know.

Was Shafee against Lingam or somebody else?

First time I met him immediately I went to the stall with Karasu, eating. I told Karasu, ‘Shafee is using you. He wants to be the AG (Attorney-General)’. I just said it out of my mouth, that very day after meeting Shafee, it turns out true, what. Shafee was competing for the post of AG. I just said it out of my mouth, that very day after meeting Shafee. This is not something I make up. It’s just my assessment of him. I didn’t trust him. I knew he’s up to something, but I don’t know what.

Were they manipulating Thirunama?

Of course, lah. This is a simple guy on planet Earth, lah. He’s my brother. If somebody tells him this and that, he believes.

Did you believe what Thirunama told you? Were you willing to do anything about it?

I believed him. He was very clear about this. You have the Chief Justice, Inspector General of Police, ministers, Tuns and Tan Sris - the whole cocktail lah. The judiciary is the first pillar of civil society. If CJ himself is pimping and prostituting in the inner sanctum of the judicious temple, what more you want to change the police force? What more you wanna change the ACA (Anti-Corruption Agency)?

Did you do anything after finding out Thirunama was pretending to be insane in a mental ward?

What you want me to do? Make a police report? At that state of affairs, what do you want me to do? We have people in high positions. One man battle alone - I make a police report what can I do? If Karpal Singh don’t want to bring the matter up [...] my brother went and saw so many people. The only person who pursued this matter to my personal knowledge was MGG Pillai. I’m not a coward lah but there is a limit of where you want to go and fight and where you want to end up. What do you want me to do, fight the system of this government?

Were you worried about the implications if you acted on this matter?

Both of us would be cannibalised you know. He’s already been put in a mental hospital. If I make a police report, what would happen to me? I could be the next one.

Did you know the late MGG Pillai and discuss your brother’s corruption in the judiciary with him?

Yes. I was introduced to him by Thirunama. I think I met him in 1999 or 1998. And I think he is lion hearted. He don’t care who or what, he will write the plain truth. Even if he knows me for five years if I’m a crook he will write. (When we talked) I realised the extent that yes, its true. You see I didn’t see the documents that Thirunama offered me. Maybe I’m ashamed to see it also. I became close to MGG Pillai, so a lot of things he has revealed to me.

Have you met Vincent Tan?

Yeah. I worked for him in 1978. After that, I’ve never met him. I walked into AIA. I knew he was my brother’s friend. I didn’t get the job through my brother. I was hired as an insurance underwriter. You’ve got agencies like that of Ramasamy, Rashid... Vincent Tan seemed a familiar name, so I signed in under Vincent Tan. We just had a conversation, that’s about it.

You never met him after that? At a social event or something like that?

No. Never.

What is your sister Kanakalashimi’s role in this? She appears to have set up little meetings and she also appeared in the photo with Loh Mui Fah and Lingam that was shown in court.

I have not seen the picture. I’m not personally interested in all this. Even Eusoff Chin, I don’t know him at all. I think I was at Tun Suffian’s funeral and I didn’t know how Eusoff until somebody pointed out that ‘this is your brother’s best friend’. Then only it crossed my mind that he is Eusoff Chin.

Do you still keep in touch with Karasu and VK?

I still talk to my elder brother. He’s my elder brother. Talking means, we meet. I still shake his hand and say hello.

Do you still go to his house?

No.

A ‘Francis Kok’ was mentioned in the police report. Why was he assaulting you?

I’m the only one. He goes and sees all my other family members. He knows I’m close to Thirunama. They all know. Maybe they wanted to get me a criminal report.

How did this incident of him assaulting you happen?

Apparently, he came to know that Thirunama made a police report. I’m the only one in the family seeing him. When Thirunama made the police report, I didn’t know. Probably. Two weeks later, he (Thirunama) came to my workplace. He calls me Sivan. He said, ‘Sivan, Sivan, I’ve made a police report. I just see it and said this is my working time. He said, ‘your name is there.’ Ok.

I said, ‘Ok, lah, you’ve done a police report. We’ll see what happens.’ So this guy (Francis), they all got excited because their names are there. So he comes and confronts me. Then I said, you all have done harm to him.

So this guy starts putting notice on my door. He sends me vulgar profane SMS messages and on Wesak Day, gangsters call me up. I get up to go to Brickfields. I get people talking to me in Malay, they’re actually Indian boys talking vulgar things. I ask them, ‘who are you all?’ They say IPK (Police Contingent Headquarters). I said, ‘this is my address. Come now.’

They said they’re from IPK, so they were police harassing you?

No, lah. This was just bullshitting. Rubbish, lah. Which police officer wants to harass me? What crime have I done? These are threats.

Nothing followed that incident? You didn’t file a police report or anything?

I’ve spoken to police officers, I’ve spoken to a sergeant. This is a civil matter. It’s a good time, also. I’ll handle it one by one. We want to see how corrupted was the police with the judiciary. Now I will lodge. When I lodged a police report in April, what will happen. I’ll be working, they’ll be calling me. They’ll be asking me, ‘why are you not married? You’re old, 49 years old, why did you stay so long in the UK? They wont’ be investigating. Because they’ll be receiving another call. The chief justice: ‘Don’t pursue the matter.’ This is just my observation.

When was the last time you had a conversation with Lingam?

In May last year. He came to see me some time after all these police reports were lodged. I didn’t want to see him. I was a bit tired of all this nonsense.

Has he ever offered to give you money to keep quiet on this or other issues?

No. He knows me very well.

So why do you suspect that Lingam sent gangsters after you?

This bloke, this guy (Francis) sends me a message, your brother told me this and that and said vulgar things. Of course, he brags... Why they are doing this, I’m also angry (about). Sometimes, I think I’d go and confront them. But then again, I’m the youngest and if I go and shout at them or get violent or slap them, they might go and tell the world that I’m violent.

Did you ask Lingam about why he sent the gangsters?

They know what they did was incorrect. What is there to ask? Why send somebody against your own brother? I also ponder why.

Were you there at that dinner Thirunama said Lingam had for the judges?

No. I was never there. I don’t know any of these judges. Only when I see the reports, see their photographs, then I would know. ‘Oh, this is the chief justice,’ (Ahmad) Fairuz (Sheikh Abdul Halim), when I see the Criminal Law Review. Only then I know that was Fairuz.

How’s the situation now in the family?

It must be very tense. We’ve got to go for a nine-course family dinner (to talk about it). (laughs)

Apart from you, who else among your siblings is close to Thirunama and sympathises with him?

It’s funny, but none of them.

Why don’t they like you?

Corruption erodes culture, tradition, family ties. Don’t you see it? The whole family was there (pressuring Thirunama to sign at Value Inn).

It’s different when a man is convicted of a crime and you’re trying to get him off. It’s another thing when somebody is not mad but you make him out to be mad. It’s one of the forbidden things. In scriptures, there are things we must not do, such as abortion. This is definitely wrong. Likewise, our case.

Watch a 2-minute video extract of the interview here.