The royal commission to probe the VK Lingam video entered its fifth day today, summoning its 11th witness - former chief justice Mohd Eusoff Chin.

The 14-minute video secretly filmed in December 2001 features lawyer Lingam allegedly brokering judicial appointments with the then chief judge of Malaya Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim.

Today's two-hour proceedings at the Jalan Duta court complex began with lawyer Wee Choo Keong, who represents Lingam's brother Thirunama Karasu, requesting his client be summoned as a witness.

According to Wee, Thirunama can provide details regarding the alleged close relationship between Eusoff and Lingam. The application however was rejected as the commission decided that they will hear from Eusoff first.

Deputy public prosecutor Nordin Hassan then questioned Eusoff based on a transcript of the video clip in question.

Nordin: You were chief justice of Malaysia from September 1994 to December 2000?

Eusoff: Yes.

Nordin: Do you know a lawyer by the name of VK Lingam?

Eusoff: Yes.

Nordin: Since when have you known Lingam?

Eusoff: I cannot remember the exact year but it was around the 1990s.

Nordin: How did you know Lingam?

Eusoff: I was Kuala Lumpur judge. He came to court to handle cases.

Nordin: Were you presiding over the cases?

Eusoff: Yes.

Nordin: Were you close?

Eusoff: We were kenalan biasa (acquaintances). Closeness is a matter of degree.

Nordin: What about Tan Sri Vincent Tan?

Eusoff: I do not know him but we do meet at functions, gatherings, Hari Raya and other events.

Nordin: Have you seen the video clip?

Eusoff: Yes. ACA showed it to me.

Nordin: Can you recognise the man featured in it?

Eusoff: At that time I could not. The video was not clear.

Eusoff was then shown the video clip.

Nordin: Can you recognise the person in the video?

Eusoff: Cannot. It's not clear

Nordin: What about his voice?

Eusoff: Seakan-akan (resembles) VK Lingam lah.

Based on a transcript of the video clip, Nordin questioned Eusoff on each of the references made to him.

Ah, so we just keep it confidential. I am working very hard on it. Then there is a letter, according to Tengku - I am going to see him tomorrow - there is a letter sent to … ah … CJ - I mean Tan Sri Dzaiddin - that Datuk Heliliah, …er Datuk Ramli and Datuk Maarop be made judges, and he rejected that Dr Andrew Chew and apa itu Zainudin Ismail lah because Zainuddin Ismail who condemned your appointment and Tan Sri Mohtar's appointment.

And then he also, it seems, wrote a letter for the remaining … confirmed as judges. As per our memo, I discussed with Tun Eusoff Chin and we sent the same memo to PM. I just want to get a copy letter that this has been done.

Nordin: Did you discuss the appointment of judges with VK Lingam?

Eusoff: No.

Nordin: Did you send any memorandum to the prime minister on the five appointments?

Eusoff: No. When is this clip (made)?

Nordin: In December 2001.

Eusoff: I was already retired. No longer chief justice. I did not write a memorandum.

Nordin: After you retired, did you send any memorandum to the prime minister related to the appointment of judges?

Eusoff: No

Correct, correct, correct. Correct, correct. You know that the same problem that Tun Eusoff Chin had. He tried to do all this and yet he has run out of soldiers. He couldn't do it because many were from the other camp. Last time was unfortunate because Tun Daim was doing everything sabotaging, you know lah…

Nordin: What problem was the man in the clip referring to?

Eusoff: I don't understand. What does he mean? Referring to what?

Nordin: So you don't understand?

Eusoff: Same problem? What problem?

One day I went to Vincent Tan's house, I fired him at night in his house. I said bloody hell, if you don't do this who will do it? All these people, Tun Eusoff Chin, Datuk Ahmad Fairuz, Tan Sri Zainal all fought for …that. Then he called Tengku Adnan. Tengku Adnan he said, saya bukan Perdana Menteri Malaysia lah, you know. If the old man doesn't want to listen to me, go to hell.

Nordin: Do you know or understand what he is referring to?

Eusoff: I don't know what he is talking about or what he means.

No, don't worry, Datuk, I know how much you suffered for Tun Eusoff Chin. And Tun said Datuk Ahmad Fairuz 110 percent loyalty. We want to make sure our friends are there for the sake of PM and for the sake of the country. Not for our own interest, not for our own interest. We want to make sure the country comes out well.

Nordin: Do you know or understand what he is referring to?

Eusoff: I don't understand what he means.

He (Ahmad Fairuz) is Eusoff Chin's man, Eusoff Chin retired. But Dzaiddin hates Eusoff Chin, you understand? Ah..

Nordin: With regards to that statement, firstly do you know and secondly, do you understand what he is referring to?

Eusoff: It is not true and I don't understand what he is referring to.

Nordin: Does Tun Dzaiddin Abdullah hate you?

Eusoff: Never.

Eusoff Chin and I are extremely close. Because you know…Yeah. Eusoff Chin in power, I can straight and get in Pom! Pom! Pom! Pom! But now Dzaiddin is there. So Dzaiddin is attacking our cases. That means what? James Kumar is aligned to Dzaiddin. But Dzaiddin is retiring in 15th of September. He is finished.

Nordin: Is it true that you are extremely close to Lingam?

Eusoff: Not extremely close.

Nordin: Do you understand what he means by "Pom! Pom! Pom!"?

Eusoff: I don't know.

Nordin: Were you involved with Tun Ahmad Fairuz's appointment as Court of Appeal president or chief justice?

Eusoff: No.

Nordin: Did you meet or discuss with VK Lingam the appointment of Tun Ahmad Fairuz as Court of Appeal president or chief justice?

Eusoff: No.

Nordin: Did you meet or discuss with Vincent Tan or Tengku Adnan regarding Tun Ahmad Fairuz's appointment as Court of Appeal president or chief justice?

Eusoff: No.

Following this, Eusoff was cross-examined by Bar Council lawyer Ranjit Singh (left) who furnished the inquiry with a newspaper report and a travel itinerary of a eight-day holiday to New Zealand in 1994 that Eusoff and Lingam went on.

Ranjit: In a question posed by Nordin on whether you were close to VK Lingam, your answer was "Biasa. It's a matter of degree" and when Nordin went through the transcript and asked if you were "extremely close" to VK Lingam, your answer was "No". Was your relationship with VK Lingam anything other than or anything more than a normal lawyer-judge relationship?

Eusoff: No.

Ranjit: I refer to The Sun news report on June 7, 2000. Can we mark this (as evidence)? Could I get (Eusoff) to look at this to refresh his memory.

Ranjit: According to the news report, you said, "I bumped into him there. As a Malaysian in a foreign country, I was happy to see a fellow countryman. I told him I was going to the zoo and he asked if he could tag along. I told him I was taking the bus there and he said he did not mind so he came along. He also wanted to take pictures with me and I obliged."

Do you recall making those statements?

Eusoff: Well, I gave some press statements. I can't remember exactly. I bumped into him, yes, I met him earlier in Singapore airport.

Ranjit: You went on holiday to New Zealand with your family, correct? Who exactly were your family members?

Eusoff: My wife and two children.

Ranjit: Can you name them for the record?

Eusoff: My wife Rozaini, my daughter, Zubaidah, and my son, Johan.

Ranjit: Was anybody else with you apart from him (Lingam)?

Eusoff: Can't remember. I think also his wife and children.

Ranjit: Do you remember if it was his wife and two children, two daughters?

Eusoff: Ya.

Ranjit: Where (did) you bump into him?

Eusoff: In the airport.

Ranjit: Thereafter you flew to New Zealand?

Eusoff: Can't remember (if it was) Auckland or what.

Ranjit: I would like to show an itinerary that appears to come from your travel agent. Can we mark this as C54? It's an itinerary from Holiday Tours. [See travel itinerary]

Haidar: Is this to establish the closeness (between Eusoff and Lingam)?

Ranjit: Yes, Tan Sri.

Ranjit: This is what appears to be an itinerary for yourself, Rozaini, Zubaidah and Johan, the same names you provided just now. Would this be the time and date you travelled to New Zealand?

Eusoff: I can't remember. But this (itinerary) comes from the travel agent.

Ranjit: According to this itinerary, there is a Dec 22 flight to Singapore and then to Auckland. A Dec 26 flight from Auckland to Christchurch and back to Kuala Lumpur on Dec 30.

Eusoff: It appears to be right.

Ranjit: The booking was made by a Rohani and a Jayathi. Who are they?

Eusoff: Rohani is my secretary. Jayathi, I don't know.

Ranjit: You said that you bumped into VK Lingam in Singapore. You flew to New Zealand on flight NZ28 on Dec 22, Class J - Class J is discounted business class - at 5.55pm. Can you confirm that you flew business class?

Eusoff: I cannot remember.

Ranjit: The next flight, Auckland to Christchurch on flight NZ1541 on Dec 26, Class J, at 3.15pm. Did you take this flight?

Eusoff: Yes.

Ranjit: Did you fly with VK Lingam and his family?

Eusoff: Yes.

Ranjit: Did you spend three or four days in Auckland with VK Lingam and his family?

Eusoff: Without... What is the question?

Ranjit: Did you travel in Auckland with VK Lingam and his family?

Eusoff: The thing is, he wanted to tag along. When I said I was going here, he said he wanted to come along. He said, "Can I come along?" I said "Yes."

Ranjit: Which hotel did you stay in?

Eusoff: I can't remember.

Ranjit: Did VK Lingam and his family stay in the same hotel?

Eusoff: I can't remember.

Ranjit: Did VK Lingam and his family tag along for the entire trip in Auckland?

Eusoff: Yes.

Ranjit: This zoo visit (referring to the photo), when was it? Could it be in Auckland?

Eusoff: I cannot remember.

Ranjit: The itinerary goes on. There was a flight from Christchurch to Auckland, NZ504 on Dec 30, Class J at 7am.

Eusoff: I cannot remember.

Ranjit: Did you fly from Christchurch to Auckland and back to Singapore?

Eusoff: I cannot remember.

Ranjit: Did you take an extra flight while you were in New Zealand? Perhaps we can assist your memory. Could there be any reason for your flights to be different from the itinerary?

Eusoff: This is what was given but what took place I wouldn't know.

Ranjit: Let's go back to the Christchurch to Auckland flight on Dec 30. Did you and your family fly from Christchurch to Auckland on flight NZ504 with VK Lingam and his family?

Eusoff: Ya. I think so. Yes.

Ranjit: The next flight, Auckland to Singapore, NZ73, on Dec 30, Class J at 9.55am. Do you remember taking this flight?

Eusoff: I think so.

Ranjit: Did VK Lingam fly on the same flight?

Eusoff: Maybe, yes.

Ranjit: Has he flown in any other flight with you? Can you please try to recall?

Eusoff: There was one extra flight.

Ranjit: I know where. We'll come to that. Do you recall flying from Auckland to Singapore in business class with VK Lingam?

Eusoff: Maybe yes.

Ranjit: The last flight on this itinerary is a Singapore to Kuala Lumpur flight on MH616 on Dec 30 at 5.30pm, first class. Did you take this flight with your family?

Eusoff: Yes.

Ranjit: Do you recall if VK Lingam's family took the same flight?

Eusoff: Can't remember.

Ranjit: Going back to the first flight, MH611, Kuala Lumpur to Singapore, the start of the trip. You bumped into VK Lingam in Singapore. Were Lingam and his family on this flight?

Eusoff: No.



Ranjit: VK Lingam also flew to Singapore, 15 minutes apart on the same day. Now, you have testified that you bumped into VK Lingam and all the flights appear to match and you stayed in the same hotel in Auckland.

Eusoff: Yes.

Ranjit: In Christchurch, there was another flight, do you recall?

Eusoff: Can't remember. Not aware.

Ranjit: So was he travelling with you?

Eusoff: His and mine are separate itineraries.

Ranjit: Are you suggesting Lingam got hold of your itinerary and followed you so that he can be close to you?

Eusoff: Possible.

Ranjit: I can't see any plausible reason other than he wanting to be close to you physically.

Eusoff: I can't say what he thinks, but Edgar Joseph, my colleague, came back from New Zealand and told me it's a nice place to visit so I told my secretary to get a tour agent to plan a trip for a week or so. He (Lingam) wanting to come and tag along is out of my control.

Ranjit: Now, the flight from Christchurch to Queenstown. Do you recall that?

Eusoff: I don't remember.

Haidar: Queenstown?

Ranjit. Yes, Queenstown. I am told that it is a place for extreme sports, the bungee jumping and all...

Haidar: So, you've (Ranjit) been (there)?

Ranjit: No, no Tan Sri. I haven't been (there).

Ranjit: How did you travel to Queenstown?

Eusoff: Possibly, I took a van.
.
Ranjit: And who drove the van?

Eusoff: One of the New Zealanders.

Ranjit: Did you and VK Lingam travel in the same van or entourage?

Eusoff: Yes. He wanted to tag along and he offered to pay for half. I paid the other half.

Ranjit: You bump into him, he follows you everywhere, you share the same van. Why did you allow him? He is a lawyer in Malaysia who has appeared before you in court. Judges don't do these things. There is a limit. Why did you allow him?

Eusoff: The van accommodates nine persons.

Ranjit: Including the driver?

Eusoff: Yes.

Ranjit: So there were eight of you in the van? Was there a Tan Chong Pau (an aide to tycoon Vincent Tan) in the van?

Eusoff: Can't remember.

Ranjit: In Queenstown, do you remember where you stayed or what you did there?

Eusoff: No.

Ranjit: How did you travel from Queenstown back to Christchurch to catch the Christchurch to Auckland flight?

Eusoff: I flew with my family.

Ranjit: You flew with Lingam and family?

Eusoff: Yes, He followed.

Ranjit: Can you explain. How did VK Lingam manage to buy the same internal flight tickets from Queenstown to Christchurch, the same flight as you? Can you explain? VK Lingam appears to be following you.

Eusoff: He goes to the airport, travel agent or whatever. I told him I had to be back for work. He said he wants to come so how can I stop him? It's his money!

Ranjit: You said that you have no connection with VK Lingam then why did you tell him you are going back for work related matters?

Eusoff: He asked where am I going, so I say I'm going here and here and he wants to follow. I also can travel with you (referring to Ranjit).

Ranjit: I never travel with Eusoff Chin, never.

At this point, Eusoff appeared to be upset.

Eusoff: You are out here to hammer me.

Ranjit: No, we're not here to hammer anybody. You recall taking pictures with VK Lingam?

Eusoff: Pictures were taken. He wanted to take with me [then he quoted the news report]. As I said, everybody, wherever I go from law students (to others) want to take pictures with me. So I can't stop him.

Ranjit: How many photos, you recall, were taken between the bus trip and the zoo?

Eusoff: I can't remember.

Mahadev: This camera was yours?

Eusoff: Our children’s. Both cameras were used... snap here and snap there. I took mostly of my family. It's not meant to be put in newspapers.

Ranjit: If you bump into him, maybe a lawyer wants to take photos with the chief judge of Malaysia but he will only take one or two and then move on. So the amount of photos is pertinent, few or many?

Eusoff: Few.

Ranjit: Approximately?

Eusoff: Maybe five, 10.

Ranjit provided the said photo to Eusoff and the commissioners.

Ranjit: Can you identify, from left to right, the people in the photo?

Eusoff: My wife, myself, VK Lingam and his wife.

Nordin then interjected, questioning the relevance of the questions regarding the 1994 holiday.

Nordin: Should we go this far on closeness?

Mahadev: Tun is giving evidence under oath. If the evidence does not accord to the facts ... should we allow Ranjit to present the facts?

Nordin: All these documents are subject to ACA investigations and they have completed it.

Haidar: And what is the result?

Nordin: Investigation closed. I think we should stick to the terms of reference, closeness per se is not the subject.

Mahadev: But this ivery much falls into the terms of reference 4 and 5 ... (related to misconduct).

Tun Eusoff, if you want to make a submission, would you like to get a lawyer to make a submission later? If you make a submission from the witness box, it makes things very difficult for us.

At this juncture, PKR de facto leader Anwar Ibrahim's lawyer M Puravalen stood up to ask about the royal commission's terms of reference. He argued that the terms of reference is not confined to the appointment of judges as it also includes the misconduct of the persons implicated in the video. The commission then directed Purvalen to sit down and allow the questioning to proceed.

Haidar: Let Ranjit carry on.

Commissioner Steve Shim reiterated the panel's offer to allow Eusoff to make a submission via legal counsel.

Shim: I think at this stage, I think he wants to say something. We notice that he is not represented. I just want to ask if he needs to seek legal representation and make a submission.

Haidar: It's up to you (Eusoff).

Eusoff: Initially, I trusted the wisdom of the commissioners on what is admissible or not... (interrupted)

Haidar: So we are asking whether you need legal representation to guide the commission?

Shim: It seems to me that you want to submit either through your lawyers or the appropriate ways.... I am merely suggesting ... whether you want to take time to engage counsel to represent you and make a submission?

Haidar: It is better you get a counsel to represent you. We'll accomodate.

Eusoff: I would like (to seek) legal representation ... Initially, I thought there were wise people up there (who would) naturally know what is relevant... (interrupted)

Mahadev: So your stand is that these questions should not be put because they are outside the terms of reference but you are under oath and they are now challenging the credibility of your answers. So is your credibility not relevant? I know you don't want to answer questions outside the terms of reference but what if they impeach on your credibility? We are also biting the bullet.

Haidar: We adjourn to Monday or proceed with other witnesses first. Give Eusoff more time to get counsel. It is a Friday.

At the end of today's inquiry, Puravalen inquired about Anwar's application to appear immediately due to his travel arrangements next week. Yesterday, Puravalen made that request to the commission and also wanted to produce two more 'secret' witnesses whom he said can shed light on the history of judicial fixings.

Puravalen submitted a written statement by one of the ‘secret’ witnesses. The commission ordered Anwar to submit a written statement as well on Monday morning for their consideration.


Malaysiakini report in 2000: Eusoff, Lingam face new allegations