Khairy Jamaluddin is one of the most talked about men in Malaysia. But the eponymous Khairy of the Chronicles and the keris; the Machiavelli of the 'fourth floor' was nowhere to be seen. Perhaps he'd taken the day off.

The chap who turned up to discuss education policy was disappointingly normal - less combustible, more relaxed, and altogether more sensible than the Khairy of coffeeshop gossip.

As deputy leader of Umno's 750,000 youth members, he must reconcile a number of conflicting, and sometimes contradictory, positions. Yet despite this, much of what he has to say will resonate with academicians and the people on the ground responsible for turning the promised revolution in teaching and learning into a reality.

He is arguably the most 'westernised' public figure in Malaysia, having attended schools in Tokyo, London and Singapore, followed by Oxford and then UCL for a Master's in Legal and Political Theory.

The position and purpose of the 'public intellectual' in Malaysia is a precarious one. Those with experience of schools and universities where critical and creative thinking are woven into the fabric of the system presumably need to make psychological adjustments to function effectively on the local political scene. After all, not even its best friends would claim that the words 'Umno' and 'intellectual' have been seen together since well before the time of Dr Mahathir Mohamad.

Nevertheless, Khairy has managed to carve a niche for himself as thinker, strategist and defender of Malay rights, which is no mean juggling feat. Perhaps his ability to keep several balls in the air (he is also the man behind the reality footballers of MyTeam) is down to his grounding in the ancient philosophers at Oxford, where he studied Politics, Philosophy and Economics.

He certainly appears to have taken on board the dictum of Aristotle, who observed almost two and a half millennia ago that, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Although he freely acknowledges that he has no direct experience of local schools or universities, Khairy's thinking reflects that of the majority of informed Malaysian opinion.

"Somebody reading this interview might say, 'well you didn't go to national schools, you wouldn't know anything.' But I meet many students and fresh graduates, and it seems we have a lot of work to do."

Student politics

With a few adjustments for political correctness, his take on the current situation is that systemic problems have already been identified and that far-reaching solutions are underway. He suggests that the most visible manifestation of the need for reform is the standard, or 'fitness for purpose', of local graduates.

"The major challenge, and this is not a new or profound observation, is the quality of the output. At times, the product is tragically inadequate for the workplace. I see plenty of graduates who are confident, articulate, and employable but these guys are in the minority."

He is quick to point out that this is more apparent in fields like the humanities and general sciences, but less noticeable in the professional disciplines.

Although the universities have borne the brunt of public criticism, surely the problem is much wider, with its roots in politics, race, religion and in the education system from primary school onwards?

"Of course, the input is crucial, too, which is why students must build their core competencies during secondary school. Without these skills they can never maximise their university experience. I agree that we can't take higher education in isolation from the schools, but our universities should still be doing better."

As part of the belated recognition that serious reforms are needed, Malaysian students are now being encouraged to 'think out of the box'. This begs various questions such as, which 'box' are we talking about, and who built the box in the first place?

"The box is created by the education system, the family, the society, all of us. When these kids get to university they don't read around their subjects, they have no interest in current affairs, no regular reading habits," says Khairy.

Would he accept that the University and University Colleges Act (UUCA), which limits freedom of expression and assembly, is part of the reason why there is so little academic creativity?

"I find that hard to swallow because countries like China with even more restrictions still produce top scientists and top thinkers. There seems little interest in the pursuit of knowledge per se."

He argues that UUCA reforms have to be brought up to date (they are still under review) and that the most sensitive areas concern student politics.

"I accept that there's student politics in England and it does no real harm, but here it can be destructive. I saw the politics of hatred with my own eyes around campuses after the Anwar Ibrahim case. It's particularly acute with the opposition groups," he adds in the interests of impartiality.

"I'm not saying that students should be apolitical, that wouldn't be healthy. But if we explicitly allow student politics, we'd have parties campaigning all over campus."

Yes, but no, but

To his credit, Khairy is prepared to tackle the kind of sensitive issues that tend to be swept under the carpet.

On the subject of 'meritocracy', a complex and controversial word in the context of Malaysian education, he offers an emphatic, "I'm all for it". This however is swiftly followed by the equivocation that "We all want meritocracy, but it has to be sequenced correctly".

He thinks that immediate full-blown meritocracy would create major imbalances in certain faculties, and suggests that 'graduated meritocracy' - a complicated phasing-in process - is the best way forward: "I always tell the Umno crowd that we must reach the day when 65 percent of university places go to Malays without the quota system. Although the quota is still necessary, it is definitely not something that we're proud of."

The subject of compulsory Ethnic Studies has also been added to the list of 'sensitive' subjects. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the subject matter, there are those who question the need for compulsory subjects in higher education at all. Shouldn't these basic nation-building concepts have been internalised during 12 years of school? Imagine turning up at Oxford at the age of 18 or 19 and having to study Ethnic Relations, British Civilisation, or Morals?

Khairy accepts the contradictions but then neatly sidesteps the issue: "I had a tremendous experience at UWC where there were 35 nationalities and you didn't have to think about it because it was built into the way you were taught and the way the system worked. Of course, we have a very explicit way of teaching national unity and civic virtues in Malaysia, whereas in other systems it is implicit in the curriculum."

Another thorny topic is the prospects of seeing the appointment of a Chinese or Indian vice-chancellor?

"It's possible, why not? But in the present political climate it might be difficult," he says.

Yet isn't Khairy, at least according to his detractors, a central figure in the creation of that climate? Umno Youth, after all, makes some sections of the Chinese community (indeed liberal Malaysians everywhere) nervous.

"Look, I don't have issues with any community in Malaysia; I have issues with social and economic imbalances. That's a very different thing."

It's the only time in the interview that he looks needled.

Asked if university VCs should have greater powers, he says: "Autonomy is the way forward and I think the (higher education) ministry realises that it shouldn't be managing day-to-day aspects of university life. We should empower VCs, especially when it comes to sourcing funds, or creating grants, chairs and endowments."

Given his grounding in English, what does he make of the ongoing language debate?

"I find myself in constant disagreement with some of the Malay language proponents, not because I disagree with them but because I don't see why Malaysia shouldn't become a bilingual or trilingual country. The use of English doesn't have to threaten the national language."

He agrees that Japan, France, or Germany have become successful using their own languages, but points out that "this conveniently ignores the fact that knowledge is being created by the Japanese, French and Germans, but not by those who speak Malay, which means we have the ongoing problem of translation".

He also approves of the recent push to promote English for teaching maths and science in schools, adding that, "I'm all for local universities teaching in English too, but with a couple of provisos. First, don't make a big deal out of it, just do it. And second, we really have to improve the level of English among the lecturers. Frankly, it's appalling if you go overseas for a degree, Master's, or PhD and then come back with mediocre English. That's not a good sign."

Umno agenda

Despite the criticism levelled at some of the more nationalistic politicians in his own party, Khairy is adamant that the Umno agenda and the national agenda are one and the same:"Let's be very clear about this. Umno is committed to the democratisation of education - to opening access to all - and to the rights of vernacular schools."

Yet it is equally clear that national schools have become increasingly Malayanised, as opposed to Malaysianised, over the past two decades. With bumiputera pupils accounting for 93 percent of government school enrolment, what can be done to entice the other communities back?

"There's a school of thought that says if you make the schools more multi-racial, improve general standards and teach Mandarin properly, then there will be a reverse migration from the vernacular schools to the national schools. But interestingly, we did a recent poll among parents who sent their kids to S(J)Ks (Chinese schools) asking them if they would send their kids to the Kebangsaan (national) schools if things improved. Almost half of them said 'no'."

Umno Youth, through its Education Bureau, is trying to send a message to all grassroots members that education is the key to progress and a better life for all: "This runs across all divisions throughout the country. We interact with primary and secondary schools, we run motivation courses, we offer career advice, and we give scholarships to deserving students."

The Youth wing, which also organises SPM tuition centres and offers internship programmes with multinationals and government-linked companies, is acutely aware that Malay students, especially those from rural areas or disadvantaged urban backgrounds, need greater exposure to the potential that is unleashed by education. This is clearly a pressing concern, particularly among Malay boys who are outnumbered almost 2 to 1 by the girls at many of the top universities.

"Yes, this is of great discomfort to me because it's going to have a big impact on families and social structures in the future," says Khairy.

The task of educational, indeed social transformation, over the next 20 years will be an arduous one, although far from unachievable given the untapped potential of Malaysia's human capital.

There appears to be a sensible consensus, even among politicians, of the changes required and the direction that must be set if Malaysia is to make the transition from a developing economy to a knowledge-based society. This metamorphosis will require both tightrope skills and juggling abilities. The next generation of leaders cannot afford to drop the ball.

MARK DISNEY is chief editor of Prospect Malaysia, a bi-monthly magazine examining trends and developments in Malaysia's public universities. This is an edited version of the interview, which appeared in the latest issue of the magazine.