In the final of a two-part exclusive interview, Nurul Izzah Anwar shares her feelings about becoming a mother and how she found love with husband Raja Ahmad Shahrir Iskandar. She also recollects her life as a student in Kuala Lumpur's Assunta Secondary School and a young Muslim woman in the United States.

Malaysiakini: We understand you're expecting - when's the baby due?

Nurul Izzah: God willing, at end of the year. I can't tell you more, because then the other 'party' will make preparations (laughs).

You will be a mother, how do you feel about that?

It's really a new experience of course (laughs), stating the obvious. I feel that I am accountable in some way. I don't want to disappoint my child, I do want to make sure I do something that will make him or her proud (of me). It gives me a lot of pressure in the sense (of deciding) what I will leave behind.

Will I provide him or her hope in life? You just can't sit back and watch, there is no such thing as that. I hope as a mother, I will be able to make him or her proud. I don't want to leave behind a legacy of regret or disappointment.

Do you know if it's going to be a boy or girl?

No, not at this juncture.

How did your parents react when they heard the news?

They were very elated, this is their first grandchild. They support us but you have to ask my mom what she prefers being called, whether grandma or granny (laughs). I am not sure yet because we haven't discussed it. They are very happy.

If the general election is called, how would that affect your plans to take active part in politics?

For the both of us and our family, the baby is a blessing. It is a miracle in itself, adding so much support and strength to all of us. Of course, it's not going to be easy but I view it optimistically. I might be tired because of the pregnancy (but) I will probably be strengthened by his or her presence.

How does your husband feel about your taking a more active role in politics?

When we first met, he knew of my political affiliation.

It will be very different lifestyle for both of you.

Certainly, I believe that you have to allocate some time, (and) private space for your family, and I will do so. I will try my best - no one is perfect - but I will try my best to fulfill my responsibility as a mother, wife and daughter, aside from my responsibilities to the party.

He has supported me, comforted me every time I've faced difficulties, it will be okay. What's most important is understanding and reaching a consensus. Once you have that, it should be okay to proceed.

Did you meet your husband through the UPP (Political Education Unit, a group attached to think-tank IKD)?

We met much earlier. We were working together in a sense that I was giving a talk in London on my father's case and the general situation before the 1999 general election. He was studying engineering in Cambridge (University). I believed I found my soul mate.

Describe the first time you saw him.

Do I need to? (laughs) Both of us are very shy ... and our eyes met.

Was it during the talk?

Yes, during the programme, our eyes met. The rest is history.

Was he part of the organising committee?

Yes. He was a student activist in his own right before he met me and after he met me. I do believe that helps in the sense that we share the same ideals. He was very sincere and that is really important to me. He is very sincere and committed.

How did both of you keep in touch (during courtship)?

It's a long story but I like said, in any struggle, as long as you persevere, you will reach success. (grins)

Both of you kept in touch by email?

Yes, sort of. Both of us are very shy people but somehow we managed to get married in the end. (laughs)

Was it because of you that he came back and joined UPP?

We only (became closer) when he came back. It was a professional relationship at the beginning for many, many months - more than a year. Once you establish that kind of sincerity and commitment to the struggle, it's very impressive and commendable.

Let's talk about your father, Anwar Ibrahim. What do you admire most in him?

There are many qualities, of course, but I would think it is his perseverance. He never gives up which is not easy when you face difficulties. It's very easy to say 'that's it for me'. He is just not that kind of person.

What about your mother?

Passion. She has to put out with a lot and she has borne the difficulties with a lot of grace. That is something that I aspire to do. It's very difficult to face difficult challenges and still maintain your calm demeanour and sanity. She has done that very well.

Are any of your siblings interested in entering politics? Your sister, Nurul Nuha, is said to be interested.

(Laughs) She is finishing her (university) studies so you would have to ask her. It would not be fair of me to answer on her behalf. All of us are very strong individuals in our own right.

Your husband is not ready for active politics?

As in any relationship, I have to respect his choices and he has to respect mine. It's also important to have financial independence. He is happy with what he is doing and is assisting in other ways. That's what we also tell others - that you don't necessary have to come forward but you can assist in another way. The most important thing is that you care and you stand up to be counted.

So one in the family is enough? Or are you letting him earn money to use for your election campaign?

Well, he doesn't get that much (laughs). You can't carry on a struggle if you are (financially unstable)... this is part of the strategy. Looking at the Democrats and the Republicans, when it comes to election year, oh my goodness, the money that pours in for the campaign, it's crazy.

As a politician, there is no stability in income if you're not a MP...

I believe strongly in that because the government has many ways to oppress you financially, you have to try to overcome the challenges. It's not easy. I don't want to say it's just in my case or in my father's case. Everyone faces difficulties because the government basically uses this way to ensure it clamps down on dissent. You just have to try your best to resolve it.

You were daughter of the deputy prime minister but then suddenly faced a tumultuous incident and became a daughter of a detainee. What was that period like? What have you gained from that experience?

My father always stressed to the six of us (children) the importance of being down to earth, being close to the people, not forgetting your roots. It helps because we never felt that we are among the elite or among the chosen one in terms of being the daughter of deputy prime minister as you put it.

That was a message that was repeated to us - you cannot forget the poor, cannot forget where you come from. We led a very normal life. When my father was sacked, (and we) suddenly found ourselves having go to (visit him in) prison, it was difficult certainly, (but) it wasn't as though it was such a huge jump, we still led our life as normally as was possible.

I don't feel any different because at the end of the day, I am still the daughter of Anwar Ibrahim, someone I love very much and admire highly, it didn't matter that the government decided to take back his position.

He was voted in by the people and it didn't change who he is. That is how we all felt. Actually I felt more proud after he was being sacked because before that, it was such a pain being the daughter of the deputy prime minister - because you never really knew people's real intentions, why they wanted to talk to you, befriend you. After that (Anwar's detention), I became more proud and was really happy that there were people on the ground supporting us rather than people whose intentions were undisclosed to us.

How has it changed me as a person? Like I said, I'm more aware of the issues that are important to our country, more appreciative of democracy and I understand the deep flaws and weaknesses that have to be improved if we are ever to be a real democracy again. This is something that has been imprinted in me as a person and it has helped me to become a better person, made me realise that you should not take anything for granted.

Have you became stronger? If that hadn't happened, would you have been a totally different person?

I would like to think I will still be the person I am today, but of course, it's difficult to say that because it was such a harrowing experience, such a tragedy. It changed me completely.

How did you feel, being 18 and forced to take up your father's plight and the situation in the country to many other countries?

Looking back, I wish I did it better (laughs). It was a big challenge, it was not easy. I never really put myself in the public eye in that manner before. I was a very shy student and person. It was really something new to me but we were very lucky because we had so many people supporting us.

When you face something tragic like that and you feel like you are not alone, that's just amazing. To think that we had people who were sympathising with and comforting us, that just gives a big boost. Probably I wouldn't have been able to overcome the challenges without their support. That is something that I've carried with me through these years.

At the time, there were also rumours of your 'relationship' with (ex-PKR Youth chief) Ezam Mohd Nor. Is there any truth to that?

That was a vicious rumour, bringing up scandals and terrible, terrible lies. At the time, I was just shocked that ... people (could say) such things (about me). Being very young, very naive, it's just ... you know...

After being exposed to the allegations against my father, people said 'well, you should be prepared for it' but when you yourself have to face it [...] and (during) the Teluk Kemang by-election, mind you... Oh my goodness, I really didn't know how to face (the allegation and thought) is this going to be my future? I was so young at the time and I didn't even have a boyfriend.

These things kept going through my head. I feel that it (has helped) in the sense that I realised how dirty politics can be. You have to remain firm if you are clear about what you are doing, you should go ahead. Of course, now I take precautions.

I remember that Elizabeth Wong and Cynthia Gabriel (from human rights watchdog Suaram) and I attended the 55th Human Rights Commission (meeting in Geneva), a book with the allegations was circulated in the conference hall. It was supported by the government at the time because who else would place this kind of document about allegations, relationships and scandals?

They (Wong and Gabriel) comforted me and said 'you should stand up talk, you shouldn't be concerned (about the allegations), you should fight it and state categorically that it is false, vicious lies'. It's important, it has made me stronger.
You must be very hurt by all this.

I was, I was very hurt but it also helped that I had a very strong support base. Even (Shahrir) - we had known each other for a year then - was very understanding. It's important who you know and the trust you have in one another. Whatever it is, it should be expected when you have such a high profile, people will try to take advantage of all these things.

There is also another rumour about you and (current Umno Youth vice-chief) Khairy Jamaluddin...

Oh... (laughs)

We have to ask this question, did he woo you?

Unfortunately, he didn't have the privilege to do so. No.

So Nori (Abdullah, Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi's daughter and Khairy's wife) has no cause to worry?

I don't think she is worried because certainly it's not anything on my part. Oh, you (journalists) are blushing, not me (laughs).

Khairy said he has only met you once.

Yes, when he was handling my father's passport, that's the only time. I don't recall any other time. What can I say? That's all (laughs).

What would Nurul Izzah be had that (Anwar's sacking) not happened? You were a student at the Petronas university (for her foundation course).

I will probably be working in Petronas and protesting the many flaws (attributed to) Petronas. It's a hypothetical question. I believe in life, you can't basically change the course that takes place. It's a very difficult to answer, I have no idea.

You spent one-and-a-half years in Washington DC. How did it feel as a young Muslim woman in the US? Did you face any problems?

I would say it was a different experience. Certainly in my university (Johns Hopkins), there are not many Muslims wearing a headscarf or who are practising Muslims, but it was a good experience in the sense that I really felt I mingled with a lot of people from different races, religions - people who are very opinionated. You are talking about graduate school, people have had experience and they feel strongly about issues.

It was a breath of fresh air because people cared about whatever we said. In class, we are really encouraged to speak up which was difficult for me at first, I was not used to that in the Malaysian education system. In Assunta (Secondary School), we spoke a lot but it was different.

(In Johns Hopkins) people kept saying 'what do you think of the Asian financial crisis', 'who do you think was responsible', those things. You seriously have to think about it. In your head, it goes on '(financier and philanthropist, George) Soros was called a moron' (laughs). It was a new experience.

I don't think so much of being a Muslim woman. I do try my best to let them know that at the end of the day, we are students here and I am a person. Of course, I am Muslim but that is part of my identity - that doesn't stop me from being friends or voicing my opinion on anything, not just particularly on Muslim issues or Islam. I think it was good.

Of course, there was a time, especially after the (Lebanese political party) Hizbullah and Israel war, it was a bit problematic because I took the Metro (train). Of course, you faced some taunts but also kindness from others. People who give up their seats for you, maybe just to show solidarity, etc. Sometimes the kindness outweighs the negative or prejudicial treatment. Overall, it was good experience.

President (George W) Bush came to our university. My friends, who were aware of issues and were highly critical of the Iraq war - none of them Muslims - all wore a really huge placard 'we did not support Bush' written in red. They made me put it on here (points to chest). Of course, the Secret Service was looking and it was fun, but the fact of the matter was that we were allowed to do so. I got in the room and was four rows away from Bush - that could never happen in Malaysia. I really was appreciative of that.

Of course, the US has a lot of weaknesses, (with) Guantanamo Bay, their own set of issues to handle, but in terms of allowing freedom of expression, that was impressive. My friend who also wore the same placard was allowed to ask the president a question and she was very critical.

What occasion was that?

I think he was trying to garner support due to the poor polls results he received. (Bush's close ally, Paul) Wolfowitz was formerly our dean in Johns Hopkins University, so it was useful just to come to rally (support). Sometimes they do come to speak in the universities.

There is so much perception about Muslim women, like how they should behave. What do you think about that?

Sometimes I understand it, sometimes it made me very angry. It's just ridiculous. I have heard comments like 'you people shouldn't laugh too hard' in public. There is always a tendency (to make) Muslim women ... project a certain image. Muslim women, whether or not they wear a headscarf, are women. They should be celebrated for who they are and they should be understood if they have weaknesses like everyone else.

There is also the argument that Muslim women should stay at home.

I don't subscribe to that. I think it's wrong because in Islam, women are given such an important role to play. They shape society, bring up children, so of course they have to participate in public life. Of course, we take time to take care of our family but that is the responsibility of the father too. It (the perception) is something that has to be corrected.

In Malaysia, we are lucky because there are so many women who work, so many professionals. It helps to change the perception. My sister-in-law has two children and she works very hard, it is just impressive. We should help to propagate that image that women should be encouraged to take part in whatever field they want. It's a good start but doesn't mean you should be complacent.

Making 'Baby Reformasi' proud

Part 1
Puteri Reformasi ready for active politics
Q&A: 'Let me come into the struggle fresh'


Watch video part 2 (17 min). Part 1 (17 min) appeared yesterday. Two more parts to follow.