The power struggle within Umno between Team A led by Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad and Team B led by Razaleigh Hamzah was visible from about 1986. The split in Umno was dramatically shown at the party general assembly in April 1987 when Mahathir was re-elected by the skin of his teeth. What followed was the sacking of Team B ministers from the cabinet. Team B members then went to court to seek a ruling that the outcome of the April 1987 party elections be declared null and void.

On Oct 27, 1987, Mahathir unleashed 'Operation Lallang', detaining more than 106 dissidents (including the editor of this book, Kua Kia Soong) without trial under the Internal Security Act. Under the atmosphere of oppression, the Lord President and three Supreme Court judges were sacked. Umno was subsequently declared "illegal" by the court. Team went on to form Umno Baru (New Umno). Throughout, the Tunku was staunchly on the side of Razaleigh.


Tunku: The last Umno assembly consisted of 1,479 members but their assembly (Umno Baru) has only 35 members. What kind of assembly is this? They've changed everything. Who appointed him (Mahathir)? He says 35 members appointed him and Ghafar (Baba). He appointed the others. How they appointed him I don't know

K Das: I was told that what they plan to do is to initiate a cadre system like in Singapore. In a cadre system you become a more or less...

Tunku: A dictator, lah! How does it work?

K Das: Basically when you appoint somebody, he becomes a kind of a liaison officer, a permanent liaison officer and they become members of the board, special members. They have special links with the leaders. So these fellows are appointed and all the leaders would be picked from the cadres. In other words it is a party within a party.

Tunku: First form a cadre, then appoint an official cadre - in other words, it is a closed system like Lee Kuan Yew's!

K Das: Do you think he will go for the general elections?

Tunku: He has been avoiding the elections all the time. He wants to avoid going back to the status quo ante and hold the election at that level, the general assembly of Umno. He should have gone back but he didn't want to because he is afraid of elections. He worked his way around where Umno was declared illegal, so he could set up his own Umno, collected his supporters, registered them and included all the divisional branches. He has collected his own men but underground, the soil was giving way and the only way was to bury the whole lot of them. How he is going to avoid holding elections I don't know

K Das: He is trying a new constitutional system whereby every nomination gives him 10 seats automatically. So as soon as he is nominated, he gets 10 votes from every division. He has arranged for that, so when he goes to the elections, before the voting begins, he already has 10 votes in his hands. Since all the divisions are under his control, they will all nominate him. I suspect when he goes to the assembly, somebody will propose that there be no elections because he already has 1,000 votes Indonesian style, so-called consensus.

Tunku: That is in Indonesia

K Das: But Indonesia is run along those lines you know. Of course the whole idea is to avoid elections.

Tunku: I visualised this sort of thing would happen. When we drafted the law, when we drafted the constitution, the election regulations and so on, we just stated straight-forward democratic like elections...

Three robbers

Tunku: I am not trying to put him (Mahathir) up to ridicule or contempt, I am just telling the people what sort of man he was. You see how he started by libelling me - he called me a man without conscience. He said all the Malays hated me, that at the time during the Emergency, I played poker I do not know how he knew if I played poker or not Actually, he is talking about what he is himself. He is just worse than that. That is what I was trying to prove to the people, what type of man he is and so I decided to write this book. I started with the events, I did not imagine the things happening. As the events happened, I made my little comments as to why it happened and all.

K Das: In your concept of the book, in all these events, do you intend to begin with the current events and carry on?

Tunku: I am writing about all these events as they happened. You see, I sent in my affidavit because that was what we thought was the right stand for Umno. Umno stood for Malaysia, Malaysia for Umno. I mentioned that when Dato Onn (Jaafar) wanted to open the door to non-Malays, the Umno people refused to accept and so I came and took over when Dato Onn left.

He was not expelled, he left on his own accord, on his own free will to form a new party, IMP (Independence of Malaya Party). And then I took over Umno and carried on until we got our independence. But we worked, built it up and turned it, by the time I left, into a powerful political party in this country, the strongest political party in this country.

Then all of a sudden, this thing has happened today. And as it happens, the prime minister has said he is forming a new Umno to take over the old Umno after the court has declared it illegal. But the Umno he has formed is not the same as the old Umno. He has restricted membership, all are his own members, all his own supporters. Those who do not support him cannot join. He cannot take over the whole of Umno unless he follows every rule and law and regulation of Umno. But he has not done that.

As soon as we protested to the court asking for an injunction, the court refused to give on the grounds that they are right, they have followed the constitution. They are recognised, they are registered, but we are not. We were the first to apply but they won't give us what to do? There is no law, no justice, no freedom of speech. Anybody who speaks out goes to prison. So he's got all the members of the opposition in prison. Now, what kind of politics are we having today?

This is what worries me and all the responsible citizens in this country, no matter what race they come from. We are all worried. The country is drained, dry, no more capital. People are saying, in this country today there are three big robbers - Umno robs the bank, MCA robs the co-operative societies and the MIC robs the highway. They have become bank robbers, co-operative robbers and highway robbers. That is what they are saying. That is a sad thing that should not have happened.

Republic in two weeks

K Das: In your book, you have traced these events up to the current situation. I thought our troubles became really clear during the constitutional crisis in 1983 when this man's character became clear. Do you agree with that? In 1983, Mahathir tried to change the constitution but the Rulers' assent was not forthcoming

Tunku: I wrote about that in my book. He could set up a republic in this country within two weeks. All he has to do is put it to the parliament with his two-thirds majority, they accept it and if the consent does not come or is not approved or disapproved within two weeks, it becomes law.

And so, he can turn this country from a monarchy into a republic in two weeks. There are other amendments to the constitution and that is why I suggested there should be a review of the constitution. It was to review the constitution that Chandra (Muzaffar) held a seminar for. As a result of that, Chandra was taken in (under Operation Lallang) and my paper (The Star) suspended.

K Das: That is why I asked you Tunku, was it not the constitutional amendments of 1983 which were the beginning of all he tried to change?

Tunku: There are many changes he has made. This is not the only one but I don't want to say it is the beginning. I did not take it seriously then but I was becoming concerned and that is why I suggested we should have a review. If anything needs to be changed, there should be a review before changes are made so that the people will have an idea of what is happening. But changes are made so suddenly by them and nobody speaks against it, it becomes law.

K Das: Many people wanted the review, including the Sultan of Perak, Sultan Azlan Shah Tunku: There was a proposal before when we drafted the constitution. We suggested there should be a review in 10 or 12 years, I can't remember. But he won't have it. He wanted to bring about change all the time. The worst thing was the meeting of the Umno Assembly on the April 14, 1987. That is what started the whole thing.

K Das: Exactly one year tomorrow.

Tunku: When they had the general election, he nearly lost except for the 30 unregistered members who cast their votes in his favour, giving him the seat. After that, normally when any question arises, he should have agreed to go back to the status quo ante.

They called for it but he did not oblige because he knew he could not win and so we took the case to the court which declared the whole thing illegal. It suited him very well and so he started this new party but we started first. Actually both were wrong. When a party is declared illegal, you've got to wait for the court of appeal to decide.

K Das: But nobody appealed.

Tunku: We appealed.

K Das: At that time?

Best judiciary in Asia

Tunku: We appealed afterwards but they did not. They came in later on April 13. Now that the appeal has been made, they've got a stay of execution until the appeal ...Then we asked for an injunction but they wouldn't give it to us. That is why I don't understand the law now very confusing. They took this man Ajaib (Singh), who is a non-Malay. He was very concerned about all this and then I heard from this lady Marina (Yusuf), who said that the chief judge went to the chambers of Ajaib to talk to him.

K Das: When?

Tunku: When the case had started, the same day.

K Das: Really? My goodness, that's wrong!

Tunku: He's a friend of Mahathir's. He knows there is no more democracy. You say anything, you get put in and you are not allowed to reply nor allowed to hold rallies to defend yourself. Only Mahathir can go from place to place to attack us. He must be stopped from doing that because we can't reply. Our request was fair enough.

If he wants to persist in doing that he should allow us to reply but they won't allow. He says democracy in this country is freedom of speech to all but surely he is not blind to what is happening here. We cannot talk. How can you say there's freedom when it is clear that this is not the case?

K Das: I also feel that if the judges behave like this, they would soon get a bad reputation abroad.

Tunku: They have got it now.

K Das: Because our judges have a very good reputation overseas.

Tunku: We are the best in Asia.

K Das: Param Cumarasamy was telling me in Australia and New Zealand, he was complimented many times on our judiciary.

Tunku: We have a free judiciary just now. As a result of what has happened in the case of (Lim) Kit Siang (in challenging the North-South Highway concession) where it was decided by a majority of three against two that Kit Siang had no right to interfere with the...

K Das: No locus standi

Tunku: But what is he? He is a leader of the opposition. If things like this happen, if he cannot talk, who can?

K Das: I am trying to get this book in my mind while you are talking but I can see now that you can begin basically with the Umno Assembly and build up to the present state.

Tunku: Yes, I will start with the Umno Assembly - big, big change. Inferiority complex is his disease and to overcome that he is now forcing himself over and above others, almost insinuating that the Rulers should not be there.

K Das: This is the point that I was insisting earlier when I was working with the Far Eastern Economic Review, that his aim was to get rid of the Rulers.

Tunku: He did not directly say that, but that's the way he is behaving...

K Das: When they amended the constitution, you said...

Tunku: that I was afraid that when it came to the Rulers, they must approve within two weeks anything passed by Parliament. If they do not, it becomes law - that made me nervous.

K Das: If it is unchallenged, we become a republic.

Irresponsible man

Tunku: We can become a republic in two weeks - that is dangerous. He is an irresponsible man. He cares nothing for class, for law, for order, for the constitution. What suits him, he just does it. You remember once he said that you must be loyal, you must not idolise the leader? But what did he do? He called everybody to Parliament to swear allegiance to him. Now he is going round the country on a so-called campaign campaign for what? To support him, not to support the party. If he wants them to support the party, then bring back the old Umno.

K Das: Or have an assembly, invite everybody!

Tunku: Having an assembly would show that he has respect for the party, but that is what he is trying to avoid.

K Das: He's developing a personality cult.

Tunku: No, he suffers from that disease - inferiority complex. That is one of the diseases we find in the political world. Look at Idi Amin - he got 10 Englishmen to carry him in a chair in order to overcome his inferiority complex. That is dangerous. It's a way of taking revenge. That is what he is doing

K Das: He seems to be without shame because he said there should be no public rallies and yet he holds rallies quite blatantly.

Tunku: For himself yes but for other people, rallies are not allowed.

K Das: You could not speak in Kelantan, Razaleigh could not speak in Kelantan...

<Tunku: Why? Because he is not being fair-minded. He tells the world he is a fair minded man, a just man, a true leader. He only does it to take over television. Every time the TV starts, it's, "PM says this, DPM says this, Mat Rahmat says this" What else is there to say? So they attack people. This is the reason for the affidavit which I brought to court - to stop him from doing this. But the court says he is right. Freedom of speech for whom? Freedom of speech for him, but others like me and Hussein Onn cannot speak.

K Das: Have you seen Tun Hussein?

Tunku: I went to call on him. He was in the emergency ward. They are sending him out of emergency now.

K Das: He is very unlucky with his health?

Tunku: Yes.

Bapa Proton Saga

K Das: I was told by Chandra that when he (Mahathir) was in Perlis, he made a speech in a rally in which he said all sorts of silly things. He made some remarks about how some people are called "Bapa (Father) this" and Bapa that"very rude of him. But Chandra said there were so many threatening letters to him, death threats and letters, very heavy security. He was scared. People are getting angry and yet even then, he still makes very provocative remarks.

Tunku: Yes, we cannot answer. Now for instance, about "Bapa this and that", I did not ask them to call me "Bapa". They did that on their own accord. I was not even officially designated "Bapa Malaysia" (Father of Malaysia). People liked to call me that. Now he says they must stop calling me that.

K Das: Chandra was saying that they called him, "Bapa Proton Saga (The National Car)". They called Tunku Razaleigh "Bapa Ekonomi Malaysia". When he was a very young man, Tunku Razaleigh told me in those days I am nobody's bapa, yet why are they calling me this?

Tunku: We did not ask for this. Out of sheer regard, consideration and thought for us - this is a Malay habit, Malay custom. Customs and habits die hard.

K Das: I think when people do this out of their own hearts, nobody should detract from it. I think it is what the Malays call "kurang ajar". When someone is going out of his way to express his feelings, you cannot criticise him because you are just criticising yourself.

Tunku: He is free to say what he wants to say but nobody else can reply and this is what is in my affidavit. He must not talk unless he allows us to talk or defend ourselves. Then he brings up the May 13 riots to scare the people.

Tomorrow: The Tunku tapes: Driven by inferiority complex - Part 6

The above is an excerpt from The Tunku Tapes - a newly launched book based on the interviews of Malaysia's first prime minister Tunku Abdul Rahman by veteran journalist K Das. The book is edited by social activist Dr Kua Kia Soong and is published by Strategic Info Research Development.