After the 1959 general elections, Tunku Abdul Rahman visited Australia where he spoke out strongly against apartheid.

In 1961, Tunku announced the idea of a Malaysian merger which would include Malaya, Singapore, North Borneo, Brunei and Sarawak. The Sultan of Brunei backed out of the Malaysian Federation in the end because of disenchantment with certain financial and constitutional aspects of the Malaysian proposal.


K Das: Tunku, I met you in 1959 after the elections. You went to Australia and I was there. I was a student, you gave a small dinner party to the students in Melbourne and that was the first time we had satay in Melbourne.

Tunku: Was that over here in 1959?

K Das: No, it was in Melbourne and you were passing through from Adelaide. You stopped in Melbourne for a few days. What I want to know is what was the occasion in 1959, after the trouble with the MCA, after the trouble with Umno schoolteachers, elections came and then you were in Australia. It was quite a long visit. Do you remember?

Tunku: That was nothing special. The Australians were very friendly.

K Das: Was that an official trip or was it a holiday?

Tunku: I think it was more of a holiday. Menzies was very friendly, he gave me full support. The only trouble I had with him was...

K Das: Apartheid.

Tunku: Oh! You realise that, he was a very strong supporter. After the first or second year, we expelled South Africa. Then he groaned, "My God, my God."

K Das: He did?

Tunku: Yes.

K Das: At the conference?

Tunku: Yes.

K Das: But actually that man is very strange you know. As a prime minister he was very powerful.

Tunku: Very English.

K Das: but not very popular. His power was through the party and he was very clever at manipulating the party. But he was a very good PM in many ways.

Tunku: One thing, he was very friendly to us.

K Das: He was good at economics but he was not very popular. They admired him though.

Tunku: The Australians are not classy people although he was very classy. He was certainly one of those who closely supported me - Nehru, Ayub Khan, they all supported me very strongly.

K Das: On what issues?

Tunku: On everything. When I went to negotiate independence with the British, I used to stop sometimes in India, other times in Ceylon ... they were all very friendly. But I was very surprised that when the massacre took place in Sharpeville they did not bring it up. Only I brought it up and I made it known to the British government before I left. I said I had to take it up but they tried to advise me not to.

K Das: Before you went to London you told them already?

Tunku: They were right about that. As soon as Sharpeville took place, I said we'd got to do something about this.

K Das: And you spoke about it in Parliament?

Tunku: Yes, in our Parliament after my return.

K Das: I think you did it before. Because you told me at the conference you came to the direct mandate...

Tunku: When we met again, Verwood, the PM came. He did not say very much. Normally at the Conference of Commonwealth countries, as PM, you are invited to Chequers, but I did not go and the PM was very disappointed because I got on very well with him.

K Das: Who was it then? MacMillan or Wilson?

Tunku: I think it was MacMillan. Then Verwood, the PM of South Africa, came to see me in my hotel. He came to try to explain about what they had done for the blacks and what not. Then he invited me to go to South Africa. I said, "What you have done to the people because of their colour is something that worries me, that you could shoot more than 70 of them down in cold blood."

Later on, they kicked him out.

Sultan of Brunei opts out

K Das: Who was the British official at the time?

Tunku: The foreign minister himself, Duncan Sands.

K Das: What did he say?

Tunku: He said, "You take over."

K Das: Regardless?

Tunku: Regardless. Transferred power over to me. They trusted me to look after the place. He told me there was no use in negotiating with the Sultan of Brunei, that he was so stupid. I said, "Every little thing has life. I don't want to interfere. I don't want to take them over against their wishes."

In fact, at first they were very keen to join Malaysia. I think he must have been influenced by the Shell people so they met and they used their influence on him. That is why I could not prove why he changed suddenly from wanting to join Malaysia and then deciding against joining Malaysia simply because of the need to contribute revenue towards defence.

K Das: Tunku, in your negotiation, after you spoke to Duncan Sands, did you speak to the Sultan afterwards?

Tunku: I did not see him afterwards, he was at his house when we had this meeting. I remember there was (Tan) Siew Sin and I, and then there was his lawyer Lawson.

K Das: Where did the conversation take place?

Tunku: At the Brunei Palace, Istana Brunei. We decided then that there would be a parting of ways. They had also suggested they should be the first Agong but we had agreed to appoint the Agong through the order of succession.

K Das: What was his reason for saying he must be the first Agong?

Tunku: He did not give any reason. That is why I said he couldn't, we had to follow the rules set up according to the order of succession. If the Sultan of Brunei had joined us he would have had to ascend the throne only after the Sultan of Perak's turn.

What were his objections? To paying for defence but it was the same for Singapore who had to pay so much for defence and so much for other revenue. Where else could we get this revenue?

K Das: This is one of my problems. I want to travel to London and Brunei and other places because other people still have records and documents...

Tunku: We've got records here but they won't give us.

K Das: They don't give it here. Also, I want to personally see the people involved at the time to talk to them and see...

Tunku: Well there is nobody else. Siew Sin has died and then there was Lord Cobbold but at the meeting with the Sultan of Brunei, he was not there. I cannot remember which British officials were there now.

K Das: It was the time of Duncan Sands?

Tunku: But he was not there at the last meeting. That is why when I saw him in London, he said, "Take it."

K Das: Were there any officials from Siew Sin's office?

Tunku: Siew Sin himself was not there. I was alone. There were no officials. It was not one big meeting but it should have been a big meeting to decide. He was playing an evasive game at that time. He wanted to join he didn't want to join... That is why I felt the Shell people were influencing him.

Tomorrow: The Tunku Tapes: Jailing Harun - Part 3

The above is an excerpt from The Tunku Tapes - a newly launched book based on the interviews with Malaysia's first prime minister Tunku Abdul Rahman by veteran journalist K Das (photo). The book is edited by social activist Dr Kua Kia Soong and is published by Strategic Info Research Development.