Former Machang MP Saifuddin Nasution Ismail told the Kuala Lumpur High Court today that Anwar Ibrahim had the numbers for the Sept 16, 2008 move to possibly oust then-premier Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

Saifuddin, who is the second witness for Anwar in his defamation suit against Youth and Sports Minister Khairy Jamaluddin, said he and Sungai Petani MP Johari Abdul handed a letter to that effect to Tajuddin Johar, who was then the private secretary to then Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi.

Replying to questions from Anwar's lawyer Sivarasa Rasiah, the witness said there were two ways of overthrowing the government, that is either through outside or within the Parliament.

“Anwar directed us to meet with Pandikar (Amin Mulia) in Kota Kinabalu. Sabah people are quite conversant in turns of changing government.

“As we decided to do it through Parliament, there are two ways - by asking the Yang di-Pertuan Agong or the PM. We decided to send the letter to PM via a letter to Tajuddin,” the PKR secretary-general said.

No list of names

Replying to a question from Khairy's lawyer, Muhammad Shafee Abdullah, who asked whether the names of those who wanted to defect were also submitted to Tajuddin, Saifuddin said there was no list of names.

“That would be a stupid move as it would neutralise the move with the government instruments that it has,” he said.

Saifuddin earlier told the court the Sept 16, 2008 move was sanctioned by Pakatan Rakyat's presidential council, which comprise seven senior leaders from PAS, PKR and DAP.

He said this included Anwar, who had met then-PAS spiritual leader Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat who was also Kelantan menteri besar, and also PAS president Abdul Hadi Awang in Kota Baru.

However, the Sept 16 move did not happen and in turn, Abdullah resigned in 2009 to make way for Prime Minister Najib Abdul Razak.

All meetings recorded

Meanwhile, Mansor Othman, Anwar's former political secretary when he was deputy prime minister, testified that there was no meeting between Anwar with Lenggeng assemblyperson Ishak Ismail.

He said he only knew Ishak as a corporate figure and not the Seremban Umno division leader who is now an state lawmaker.

Mansor testified that all meetings at the Deputy Prime Minister's office were recorded.

However, he said those who visited Anwar at the Finance Ministry for political purposes would be recorded by his then-political secretary Ezam Mohd Noor.

The hearing before Justice Azizul Azmi Adnan continues on Friday with Selangor Menteri Besar Azmin Ali taking the stand. Azmin was Anwar's private secretary when he was deputy prime minister.