Malaysiakini: What are the major challenges facing the Malaysian trade union movement in the years to come?

Syed Shahir: There are a lot of challenges facing trade unions. It's not going to be smooth sailing, no such thing like cruising in a gondola in Venice. It's going to be really rough. If I can use this analogy, it will be equivalent to a tsunami that can sweep you away if you're not really tough and prepared to face it. The challenge of globalisation is very serious. There is the merger of companies, of banks, of institutions and of corporations. This is happening rampantly and just like that. What will happen to the workers? Assuming that there is no union in those companies or corporations, what do you think will happen to them? We have hundreds of thousands of workers from all walks of life who come to us for help in filing a case seeking redress under Section 20 (of the Industrial Relations Act 1967) for wrongful dismissal. Why do you think? It's because of all these reasons.

What are the top challenges?

Job security, although the main theme is globalisation. In a merger, the new entity would not want two people doing the same thing, so one worker has to go. Our challenge is, can we stop this? Is there any law to stop this? No, because you're talking about free enterprise. Ultimately, it's up to me to close down (my business) and go elsewhere and you can't stop me. Okay, I can pay the compensation but how much can compensation do once you're unemployed? The total sum would be peanuts, right? Can these people get a job with the same condition? What will happen to their family after that?

Let's say I'm now enjoying a RM1,200 salary and get compensated by the company, but can I get a job with RM1,200 salary the next day? I don't think so. What skills do I possess, particularly with due respect to the workers in the electronics industry? Up to 20 years of work and they get only RM1,300. This is the challenge and nobody can guarantee anything.

What is the MTUC doing to unionise migrant workers in order to protect their rights? What are the major problems and pitfalls?

As far as we're concerned, their presence threatens our job. On the other hand, they will say that they're coming here to help us, earn a living and at the end of the contract return to their home country. But in the fight between guest workers and us, who's the winner? The answer is obvious. It's the employer. They suppress wages and our workers do not have an adequate way of fighting back because labour is abundant... you can bring in migrant labour anytime.

The other obvious thing is the lobby of employers in this country which is very strong. This is very obvious. Otherwise, I don't think the government will come out with the statement saying that we need almost 170,000 workers. Where do they get these figures if not from the employers, who say that they have a shortage of labour and this is what they want. On one hand, we need to look at the plight of guest workers but we have citizens asking 'who are you protecting?' or 'hey, we voted you to protect our interests, what are you doing?' On the other hand, you can't be chanting the slogan 'workers of the world unite'. It's a delicate issue as we're talking of solidarity, we sing the song of solidarity. But what solidarity are you talking about when you can't even help your fellow workers who are merely earning a living in this country? I think we need to educate and bring the right perception of workers in this country towards other workers.

Secondly, we must have a clear policy in terms of the employment of migrant workers. We should not allow a situation whereby employers can dictate terms in terms of employment, conditions of service or demand to bring them in. Their argument is that 'if you don't allow us to bring in workers, then we cannot operate and if we cannot operate, then there will be a chain effect.'

How is the MTUC going to focus on women's issues, not just maternity but to include sexual harassment, discrimination, unfriendly working conditions and unsafe working environment?

I met several women's non-governmental organisations recently. Our women's wing will launch a campaign on gender sensitisation soon. But we'll start with retirement age and maternity protection as we can't possibly address everything at one go. More importantly, this should be considered as workers' or industrial relations issue, not just women's issue. I've always maintained that men or women are all workers but of course, women have a different approach, types of problems and needs which is understandable.

Other issues such as sexual harassment, unfair working hours, safe environment must all be brought into the mainstream. The tricky part, though, is the acceptance of such issues given the local scenario and each country's own peculiarities. We have our own value system which cannot be compared with Nordic or Scandinavian countries, for example. This is not a defensive statement, I'm only being practical. You must not do something that frightens off people. The transition must be there. Here, again we talk about political consciousness and political education in changing people's perception.

The way forward is to have a social safety net, something which the previous prime minister was really against. I remember in one Umno (general) assembly he had said 'no, no way... it's encouraging people to be lazy'. This means the dehumanisation of human beings, and the inadequacy of a social safety net is another challenge for us.

What are your plans to attract more youngsters into the MTUC or affiliated unions?

We need to discard notion that MTUC or trade unions are dinosaurs or reserved only for the old folks. Youths may wonder why they should join a union which is widely perceived to be 'an old men's issue, organisation or business'. We want them not only to be a part of the movement but to eventually take serious participation, to get into the mainstream and not just remain at the fringes.

This is not an easy task because we need to first understand young people's language and vice versa. They were born in a different era, we can't go back to the 50s or 60s when talking to them. I was mentioning to a few friends about learning from colleagues in Korea and Taiwan on how to make unionism attractive to young people. You can see full participation of young people over there and its very interesting, this activism. There must be something that brings them closer to the union movement, which is also reflected in their leadership.

This is something we must be prepared for when talking about the second-line leadership. We have to be consciously prepared for it, not just say that we're delivering it on a silver platter but to first work together before moving forward. Future challenges will be much, much more complicated and complex than today as everything is moving very fast within a short period of time. The issue is whether we can keep pace with that.

Whenever I speak, I ask people to think whether our children, grandchildren will one day think of unionism as a dinosaur. Will that happen? I think it will if we're not prepared to deal with it now. I've spoken to a group of young people interested in not only joining a union but also in forming one. There are hiccups or generation gap but at least we're talking. Hopefully we can inculcate this idea into the younger generation for greater participation in the union movement, both men, women and even trans-genders as they are all workers.