Former deputy premier Anwar Ibrahim tells malaysiakini what Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi must do if he intends to survive in Umno in the first of a three-part exclusive interview.

Malaysiakini: There appears to be a clear division in Umno between party president Abdullah Ahmad Badawi's men and those linked to former president Dr Mahathir Mohamad. In the recent party polls, Abdullah failed to stamp his authority in Umno. Is it too late for him?

Anwar: I think the division is real and it has gone to the stage that is considered fractious. The cantankerous exchange between party leaders in private has surfaced somewhat. But I still believe because of the feudal structure of the party, Prime Minister Abdullah can override the initial storm. But it would depend on what he does.

I think he must be more decisive and must clearly show to the general Umno constituents and the grassroots that he is a man of some credibility in terms of combating the ills very much associated with the party and the government. Now, is he prepared to do what he had said he would? That is the real question, but he seemed rather indecisive.

In the last Umno polls, Abdullah's men lost substantial ground while Mahathir's men had strengthened their positions. Has Abdullah missed the boat?

No, he still has time because he is still very much in charge as the PM and also president of the party. But the appointments he made, unfortunately, are not consistent with his pronouncements on clean government, on the anti-corruption drive, because people who are very much tainted and very corrupt are still there and re-appointed.

And I don't believe that he has to do it (re-appoint tainted leaders) as a political manouevre because he can still take people who are quite prominent and influential to have a say in the running of the party and the government.

My view is that he has to do it for his own survival. If he does not do it in the next few months, I don't foresee an easy path for him. But if he does it, it will give a clear signal that somebody is in charge. I was a strong deputy prime minister but when it comes to making the decision, it is the prime minister. The system operates in that manner.

You said we need to help Abdullah fight corruption. How can we help?

Well, the media - with the exception of malaysiakini, Harakah, Seruan Keadilan - is not helping. This is because some of those who are running the media seem to be prone to control even more than the Home Ministry. And that attitude of illiberal thinking certainly does not help.

What they (the media) should do is expose the ills and corruption that would influence the direction of politics in the country and also rationalise the action to be taken by Abdullah. So essentially, without the media, I don't think it's going to help. But this country is full of contradictions.

When you were in power you were accused of controlling the media too. So shouldn't it be no surprise to you that the media is what it is today?

We were then dealing with an authoritarian leadership. But now we are dealing with a leader who is more conciliatory and complacent and does not want to be seen as unjust and ruthless. So you have to decide. You don't want to be seen to be unjust and ruthless - (this means) you have to be fair and give some latitude to the media. But that is not happening.

I still feel from my limited exchange with civil servants, the general public, even with opposition leaders and supporters, they still feel that Abdullah must be given a bit more chance. You know, the people are being extremely kind and I think not many political leaders would be given a reprieve as people are giving Abdullah; partly because of his personality.

But then he cannot take it for granted, based on this small ray of supporters - some deemed to be inexperienced. He should broaden the range.

I am still optimistic because I think I understand the party and how it operates, particularly the grassroots. The corrupt leaders and warlords can pressure the PM but they are also scared, very scared ... of the instruments of the government and the general public perception.

It is not malicious if you give facts of those involved in corruption and other crimes. That is what Abdullah has to do. But the attitude towards the media and ISA (Internal Security Act) has not changed. What I am saying is he has the capacity to do the task if he decides which is now critical for his own survival.

What should he do then?

As I have said even in passing to him: 'You do the right thing.' I mean you do what is right. The right thing is reflected from the pronouncements that he had made. Just follow through. I don't think it's that difficult.

But how can he follow through?

If he compares to my position then - however powerful I was as the DPM - you have a leader in operation. What is stopping a prime minister from meeting editors? Even if he does not want to give a free hand to the media, he can say to them: 'Look, you have some latitude now on issues of corruption, democratic process, voices of the opposition because I have told the people that we must have this sort of change.' What is so difficult about that?

He can also call the Anti-Corruption Agency (ACA) and say: 'Look, have proper inquiries and investigations.' I don't believe PM Abdullah will do something drastic because it is not his character to do so but at least give some semblance of authority and credibility to the ACA. You have appointed the weakest people to run the organisation, but (at the same time) you talk about combating corruption. It will never work.

We have had in our past history - however difficult and limited - some strong ACA DGs (director-generals). But under Dr Mahathir, they had problems. I know Tan Sri Zulkifli (Mahmood) those days and then Datuk Shafie (Yahya) who went and probed. Then when the PM said stop, they stopped. But they went and when they did, they went all out. That's how they got Tan Sri Ali (Abul Hassan) of EPU (Economic Planning Unit). No one dared touch him but the ACA did.

I was attacked because Mahathir's colleagues thought that by going after EPU and (ex-Perwaja chief) Eric Chia is enough to demolish Mahathir. But the fact remains until today - I am telling you this - that I was not instrumental at all and I did not even encourage (the ACA).

I just said, 'Shafie, you do your job. I don't want to be kept informed.' He informed me only after the raid at the EPU's office. At that time, I was in Penang chairing the Umno state liaison committee meeting - Abdullah was there too. When he (Shafie) informed me and I said, 'My God! Have you informed the prime minister?' He said, 'No, I am informing you first before seeing him.' And I said, 'You do that.'

Of course, I encouraged actions be taken but I never specified who (to be investigated). All letters - I had hundreds of complaints - I passed it to the DG, noting 'ACA, sila teliti' (please look into it). That's what I think needs to be done, so it can never be perceived as political.

Abdullah has made positive pronouncements but there are not enough people within the party to support him.

That is because he did not appoint the right people. Take the time of Mahathir. He just appoints. Not all were vice-presidents or key supreme council members. Abdullah waited a year! He should have done it, appoint the right people who have some charisma, credibility and I am positive that they will do well in the supreme council election. I am positive!

Yes, money politics can be very excessive but you can see throughout these years, somehow or rather, some bright guys who just come out and they are given the support. But here, you don't have some bright guys around because they were never given the opportunity. For example, he appointed the minister of religious affairs - he is a nice man but so uncharismatic. So, no appeal and whose fault is that?

Abdullah has been long in the game. He understands this, he knows. But I think he is so uncertain because of the different advice he is getting from various groups

The current Umno supreme council will be fighting the next general election as it's unlikely there will be a party election before the next general election. He is stuck with this line-up whether he likes it or not.

He lost one opportunity, a major one. But he still has the chance and the time. No matter how hard it is, he has to do it. Fair enough, some actions have been taken against cabinet members or supreme council members - four or five of them. But there is still a long way to go and he must replace some of the ministers in the cabinet.

I personally don't feel that there will be revolts if he was to take action against corrupt ministers. (There is talk) that any revolt would cause the downfall of Umno and the BN... but not for this reason. He should also understand that the BN components - particularly MCA, Gerakan and the MIC - will not object because throughout history they have been very, very submissive.

But there were party revolts before. It's not as if Pak Lah can be thoroughly certain there would be no revolts...

Yes, (the revolts were) against Mahathir but for a different reason. If there is a party revolt for a certain principle - it is something we would welcome. But I don't believe there is going to be a party revolt just because he decides (to prosecute) based on ACA investigations and the report of the attorney-general.

Of course, if you talk about the present ACA and the AG, they are not going to make any decision. But assuming they do, then he (Abdullah) must take action. I don't believe there is going be any challenge. No, not Umno.

In 1998, when Abdullah was appointed to replace you as DPM, you said he was the most servile of the lot.

Yes, they (journalists) asked me why Pak Lah was chosen and (I said) of course he is the most loyal, the most civil-service orientate member of the leadership. That said, he is No 1 now. He is intelligent enough to understand he has been in politics for a long time, he has his ups and downs and there is no point lamenting about the bitterness when he was out (of power). Just do the right thing.

I find it difficult not to complain about people who cannot do the right thing when they are in the position to do it. Here, you have absolute majority, you have entire support, you have servile component parties around you - with due respect to MCA, Gerakan and MIC [laughs]. Take MIC, they are in no position to question anything because their leadership is so tainted. So what is the problem?

What's your opinion of Deputy Prime Minister Najib Abdul Razak?

The DPM... he, of course, does not have the same stature, both in terms of intact character and integrity as Abdullah and I think that is generally the view of many Malaysians. He is of course intelligent and articulate at times but I don't see him being able to make the same sort of pronouncements as Abdullah.

Why?

Partly because of the baggage and problems associated (with him). In terms of statements like separation of powers, anti-corruption, we have not seen any pronounced statements from him, which is really very disappointing. But I see no reason why he should be a factor or a stumbling block in discouraging Abdullah to do these things.

I remember the slight aggression (on the issue of ) the ACA bill (before it was passed in1997). There were protests from many ministers and Mahathir spoke to me when he was in London. He said, 'A number of friends told me that you are pushing the bill too far. Why don't you re-look at it. People are not happy, they are worried.'

So I asked, 'Which provisions, sir?' And he said, 'I don't know but they seemed to be unhappy. Can you talk to them?' I told him, 'Yes sir, I will bring it up at the next cabinet meeting.'

I brought the matter up at the meeting - I was acting prime minister then. I said that some of you were not happy and I understood the only (contentious) provision was that ACA could still go after you many years after you leave office. I told them that unless you were corrupt you had nothing to worry. 'I can assure you that if you are not corrupt, you have nothing to worry.' Of course, they did not say anything and we got the bill approved.

Should Najib be threatened by you?

Najib should just do his work rightly and should not have this complex of being threatened most of the time. Just do your work. OK, you feel threatened but what is the option? Does he think that it is safer for him if Anwar is in prison? What is this?

In the last general election, Keadilan Youth chief Mohd Ezam Mohd Nor was believed to be instructed by you to contest against Najib in Pekan although he eventually decided not to.

As the DPM, I would have never felt threatened if somebody wanted to contest in Permatang Pauh (Anwar's former constituency which is currently being held by his wife, Dr Wan Azizah Wan Ismail). My advice to Najib is just do your work and do the right thing.

When Umno was declared illegal, Tengku Razaleigh Hamzah form Semangat 46 and many of his Umno supporters joined him. Your case was different as only a few left Umno while a big portion of your supporters remained in the party. Do you think that they still support you?

A lot of people questioned why was it that Tengku Razaleigh could muster enough, or at least some credible supporters, to leave with him.

(When I left) I was absolutely certain that 20 supreme council members would give full commitment. But then I was arrested, and before that some of them (supreme council members) were also arrested... some were stripped naked, some were questioned by the Special Branch. The ruthless manner and action taken against them had really scared them. I don't think that it is excusable for those who talk about good governance, principles or ideals to succumb to these actions. That's not defensible. But that was what happened.

But I have no regrets because I sense even now the grassroots is friendlier, more supportive. But we have no machinery, we don't have the resources and of course, we had a lot of problems in the leadership as some were detained, threatened, frightened after they lost everything, but I am optimistic that we can move on.

Since Mahathir resigned as PM, he has been appointed as adviser to state-owned companies such as Proton and Petronas.

Dr Mahathir had said that once he retires, he would retire for good. I read that one of his family members said that he would like to concentrate on his religious duties. I strongly encourage that.

The position in Petronas and Proton certainly doesn't go well because he was a former prime minister with very strong views - loads of criticisms against the way Petronas funds were squandered and unwisely spent. And a lot of issues in Proton that needs to be dealt with. It is very unwise because it makes any adjustment of policies more complex.

In 1993, in your fight against then deputy Umno leader Ghafar Baba, you were accused of having resorted to money politics to win. The situation has become even worse.

Money politics can be an excuse for sore losers who blame it for their loss. Therefore, if they want to accuse or criticise me, it must be based on solid evidence or facts.

But in recent years, money politics within Umno is so pervasive that every Umno delegate knows that. And from what I was told, it is like raining money! RM7,000, RM9,000, RM11,000, RM21,000 per delegate. I have met many delegates who went to the (Umno) conference who actually admitted that they received between RM9,000 and RM11,000.

This stage (of money politics) is worrying. You have a corrupt establishment and it's so pervasive and scandalous but yet nothing seems to be done about it. You set up committees and investigations involving those who are very much involved in the entire operations.

Should the ACA be involved in rooting out money politics in Umno?

Of course, that would be a proper thing. And we have to make it clear to the ACA because some of the ACA officers are like some editors whose self-censorship is stronger than the Home Ministry. If the ACA is not given clear instructions, they would hesitate in taking action as they are unsure whether this or that fellow could be touched. So they must be told that a complete investigation must be held and in cases where there are strong clear and incontrovertible evidence, action must be taken immediately.

Will we see you back in Umno one day?

I don't want to sound too arrogant. I have not considered (returning to Umno) and I have not applied. I don't want to sound too arrogant as to condemn the party because many at the grassroots are extremely kind. Even the divisions are still very open, frank and supportive. So I will leave it at that.

I have not given any indication even discreetly that I have the slightest interest in Umno but I will maintain very close rapport and work with PM Abdullah.

If that is so, do you think it's proper for anyone to call you a traitor?

Well, these (accusers) are small fries [laughs]. We have this traditional description 'cicak mengkarung'. But I was told he (Youth chief Hishammuddin Hussein Onn) floundered when he said that because people then questioned, 'What about Datuk Onn Jaffar, Hussein Onn and Tengku Abdul Rahman?'

It will be difficult for the opposition to win the general election as the government has complete control over the 3Ms - money, machinery and media.

We are making a little impact now. I think we should not be too ambitious. We have to be realistic. But we should always have faith and trust the wisdom of Malaysians. I survive because of that faith.

They say I am an incorrigible optimist but after meeting many people after my release, somehow I trust them. I have been demonised for six years but the people I meet have been so friendly, so kind. If we can work on this issue, why can't we work on other issues?

I sense even now when I am an unemployed, I see more people coming for my open house. When I went to mosques while I was the deputy prime minister, there would be two or three rows of people who would come to greet me but now immediately after prayers, the entire (people in the) mosque would come. It is a good sign because they don't consider me a radical opposition, a corrupt or a sodomist. So it's a good sign and they are prepared to listen.

The Sarawak state election is less that two years away and it is said that you would have to play a role there as well. The state BN is so strong there with 61 out of 62 seats. What will be your message to the people of Sarawak?

(I would tell them) Enough of (Chief Minister) Taib (Mahmud)! Enough of timberland being squandered. Sarawak is well behind Peninsula Malaysia in development. There is a lot of problems in Sarawak - poverty and housing. I hope Sarawakians would act wisely and clamour for change.

What else can be said? The situation there is so pathetic. They should not allow a few elites to do whatever they like and squander as much as they like.

You said you're jobless. Are you looking for a job?

I am. All my speaking arrangements... except talking to malaysiakini [laughs], are paid. For example, I'm going to South Africa, Indonesia... I told them you can't expect me to pay for my fare and stay. At the same time, a lot of friends are helping. For example, the (Hari Raya) open-house gathering - I think it cost between RM50,000 and RM100,000 - but people voluntarily sponsored the food and drinks, which was very good of them.

I think it would be difficult for me to find a job in Malaysia. There had been lots of offers by some major multinational corporations in the Arab world that offered me posts like consultant and adviser. I have not decided but I am reluctant to be associated with companies as such. But I told them, if you want to help, please do through donations.

But many of my speaking arrangements, I am paid quite handsomely to accommodate my lifestyle [laughs]. Fortunately, all my suits are still there - batik shirts.


Tomorrow: Will PAS and DAP get along?