At a forum on the Auditor-General's Report in Penang last night, Public Accountability Committee (PAC) chairperson Nur Jazlan Mohamed was bombarded with queries on why it was so hard to nab culprits guilty of corruption.

Nur Jazlan explained that in some cases, government departments try to use up allocations according to their requested budgets.

"For example, the budget to procure computers is RM10 million, but expenses may only be at RM9.5 million.

"The departments will then allocate the remaining RM500,000 to other items, so when you see the total bill, it still comes up to RM10 million although it looks inflated, different.

"What the PAC does, is pinpoint who is at fault and what is the fault," he added.

Nur Jazlan was speaking at Penang Institute's forum - titled ‘Government Audit: Accountability or Formality?’ - featuring Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission (MACC) legal adviser Han Chee Rhull and DAP Bukit Mertajam MP Steven Sim (left), with Centre to Combat Cronyism and Corruption (C4) director Cynthia Gabriel as moderator.

State Chief Minister Lim Guan Eng and Penang Institute CEO Zairil Khir Johari earlier gave their welcoming speeches at the event.

Despite his clarification, a member of the audience, Hah Thiam Khean, interjected: "I am sorry, I don't follow. You are just making excuses."

Nur Jazlan politely told Hah that he was merely pointing out the current procedures in the civil service.

This prompted Hah to ask, "So, RM500,000 can be stuffed into things which were not bought?

"The money may have gone somewhere, but to whose pocket?" queried Hah, who hails from Kuala Lumpur but has lived in Penang for 15 years.

Nur Jazlan said the money may not have gone to anyone's pocket as it was still in the account when the PAC is shown the cost breakdown.

When Hah said he still did not understand how that could have happened, Nur Jazlan asked: "You tell me who is at fault?"

‘Up to the PAC to investigate’

"The person who pocketed the money!" said Hah, slightly raising his voice.

"But who pocketed the money? You don't know who pocketed the money," replied Nur Jazlan.

"That is up to you to investigate," Hah pointed out.

"Probe the person who approved the project, start from him. If he is not willing to cooperate, go after him," Hah added.

Nur Jazlan said the budget and decisions made in the department are approved by the committee.

"Then the entire committee is at fault. What is so difficult?" Hah queried, rather impatiently now.

Nur Jazlan (right) then responded that the PAC needed concrete proof which would stand up in court to persecute any individual for abuses of funds.

Meanwhile, another participant mentioned that the example given shows how government departments are using the wrong method when spending public funds.

"If the spending is RM9.5 million and the budget is RM10 million, it does not mean you have to spend the remaining RM500,000.

"The balance money should go back to the coffer," he pointed out.

Nur Jazlan added that the PAC has recommended changes to the procedures and urged government departments or agencies involved in such cases, to use a revised budget which reflected the correct expenditure.

He also said the auditor-general’s office is overworked as there were only about five professional accountants there while the rest were administrative staff.

"That office lacks professional staff with real life experiences to cope with complicated issues," he noted.

Nur Jazlan said the PAC has urged government departments to be more precise in their reports because "it is our credibility at stake".

"I am very careful of what I do because I don't want to lose my professional credibility. I am a professional accountant and I want to maintain that."

Public participation encouraged

Meanwhile, the MACC was queried on what would happen if a complaint is lodged against the attorney-general (AG).

"Would he abdicate himself, allow himself to be investigated and subsequently prosecuted? How do you prevent conflict of interest in this country?" asked Hah, who wore an @Kini T-shirt.

Han said the MACC will investigate the AG under the Criminal Procedure Code (CPC).

The CPC has a specific section where it allows the solicitor general to take over, he added.

He cited a case where opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim lodged a report against AG Abdul Gani Patail (right) and former inspector-general of police Musa Hassan.

"The MACC appointed - through the solicitor general - three judges to conduct an investigation into the complaint.

"It was a 2-1 decision that there was no case against the AG and Musa," he recalled.

Gabriel invited the public to participate in holding the government accountable for wastage and leakages of public funds.

She asked the public to visit C4's website where the NGO has uploaded the Auditor-General's Report.

She urged the public - including Penangites - to scrutinise state government expenditure, adding "do not let them off the radar".

"We have to make sure state governments also follow principles of good governance," she stressed.

Gabriel (left) said the public can go to the website and rate government departments and make recommendations on how to improve current procedures.

"On the website, you can rate the ministries, not by how handsome they are, but by how effective they have been.

"Which will survive a blue mark, it would be interesting to see.

"We will then compile the report and pick out the best 100-200 comments, and turn them into a citizen audit report and hand it over to the PAC who has agreed to accept it," she said.

The compilation will be submitted to the PAC at every Parliament sitting, added Gabriel.