Former Court of Appeal judge Shaik Daud Mohd Ismail speaks to malaysiakini on the rot in the judiciary in this first of a three-part series.

Malaysiakini: How is your retirement so far?

Shaik Daud: Retirement has been very good. There is no pressure, no deadline to write judgments. No one breathing down my neck, so to speak.

So you have yet to get bored...

Not so far. I am a director (non-executive) at three public-listed companies. So I attend my meetings about three to four times a week. I have my granddaughter to fill my free time. I have also taken several cases to act as an arbitrator. So that will keep me very busy. But that will only start in August.

You were elevated as a High Court judge after 10 years as a prosecutor. How many Lord Presidents and Chief Justices have you worked under?

Yes, I worked under Tun Suffian (Hashim), Raja Azlan (Shah), (Tun) Saleh Abas, (Tun) Hamid Omar, (Tun) Eusoff Chin and for a short while under Tan Sri Mohamed Dzaiddin (Abdullah)

Among the six heads of the judiciary, who do you think was the most interesting?

Tun Suffian was the most interesting person. Because although he was the LP (Lord President), he treated everyone like colleagues. As far as he was concerned, there was no distinction between him, the LP and us junior judges. It was very easy to work with him. There was no protocol at all. I really enjoyed working under him.

Our relationship was sometimes like friends and sometimes like father and son. I was fortunate enough to work under him earlier when I was a magistrate in Alor Setar (Kedah) and he was a judge. Similarly then he treated me as a colleague. I really enjoyed myself because he makes working easy and there is nobody breathing down your neck. Of course if you had made mistakes, he would call you. But he will not " hentam " (scold) you but instead guide you.

Raja Azlan was also very good but there was a barrier because he is a royalty. But on the whole he was alright. Saleh Abas was also very good. We had good rapport as we had worked together at the AG's chambers. Tun Hamid was also okay and quite easy to work with.

But unfortunately Eusoff Chin became a problem. Although we knew him before he became the Chief Justice as we worked as magistrates and officers. But... I don't know what happened to him. When he was elevated as the Chief Justice, he was completely a changed man.

Have you ever got instruction from those from the judiciary or outside?

Never from people outside the judiciary but there were people from within the judiciary who tried.

What was your reaction?

I told them off!

What was their response?

I can see that after the incident their attitude was different. They were distant and cooler, but I didn't care. When I hear a case, I will do it to the best of my ability. I have never heard any lawyers saying that they were unhappy of how certain judges handle cases. Of course now you have lawyers choosing specific judges to hear their cases. It was unheard of then.

There are times when judges told lawyers to argue on certain points even before they heard the arguments first. Isn't this a bit unfair?

Yes, that is unfair. At least the judge must hear what the lawyers have to say first. I never like people telling me how to do my job. There were times when people have told me how to decide and dismiss certain appeals. I told them off.

Once I was asked to sit at the Federal Court for an appeal because Tan Sri Mohd Azmi Kamaruddin who was supposed to hear it was sick. I told them I did not know anything about the case, so I was given the records. Then I was told what to do. I replied that although I have read the records, I would still go to the open court with an open mind.

Don't make me decide on paper, I told them. If the argument is for, I will allow and if the argument is against, I will dismiss. That's why they didn't like me, because I objected. They expected me to say 'yes, sir', and just do whatever they wanted. To me you are doing an injustice to the accused and the litigants. How can you sleep at night and do that?

Have you ever asked those judges whether they can sleep at night?

Well, I did! They answered: 'Oh, I sleep very well at night, thank you.' So I replied: 'Well, thank God for you. Because if I were to do that I couldn't sleep.' Even as magistrate, I have never done it. I will not succumb to such directions.

It was during Eusoff Chin's administration that all these funny things took place?

Yes. These funny things never happened before him. And unfortunately when lawyers make their application (for certain judges to hear their case) they succeeded. That was the problem. Before that you wouldn't hear them complaining. But when the door (for them to choose judges) was opened, of course they will enter. Before that, they wouldn't even try it because they know that it is wrong.

During the farewell dinner organised for you, you gave a strong message to other judges not to be a "yes man" judge?

Yes, I said they must remember their oath of office to be faithful to the country and not any individual. It's simple: 'Uphold the constitution and be faithful to your country.'

Can you identify these "yes man" judges?

Yes, several of us can identify the judges in the other team.

Have any of these "yes man" judges approached you and asked you to stop making noise?

No, they wouldn't dare! Because they know they will get a lashing from me (laughs) They know that we are vocal and so they did not dare say anything to us.

Why do you think they become 'yes men'?

They have their own reasons. Maybe they are so thankful that they were appointed as judges. As a judge you are supposed to be independent to decide. A lot of people are confused about the meaning of independence of the judiciary. It simply means that nobody can interfere in your decision-making process.

So when a judge mistook the independence as freedom to do as he pleases, you get all sorts of funny things happening to the cases. You have lawyers being scolded for trivial reasons. A judge is independent to make a decision without interference. If your decision in wrong then it can be corrected by the Court of Appeal.

When Eusoff Chin's credibility was questioned after photos of him and a prominent lawyer appeared on the Internet, how did you feel?

Because of him and the misconduct allegations against him, the whole judiciary's reputation was tarnished. The public seemed to think that all judges are like him. There was once, I had given a talk on the independence of judiciary. Despite my assurance that there are judges who are unwilling to compromise the independence, one participant had approached me telling me that he still does not believe that judges can be independent.

Do you think that there should have been an inquiry to investigate the allegations against Eusoff?

I think he should have been removed, He should have the guts to step down or the least he could have done was to answer the allegations properly. His answers and explanation on the allegations were definitely not well done and unconvincing, The morale of judges were quite low then. It is quite sad that all this happened when the judiciary was regarded with esteem respect all along.

It was quite obvious that after his retirement, Eusoff was absent in a number of judiciary functions. What do you think is the reason?

Maybe he was not invited. But all the other former judges were invited. Yes, we noticed that he was not present in several formal functions and some private ones too like weddings. I see no reason for him not to come. I myself try to attend all function where I meet ex-colleagues and fellow judges. It's nice to meet old friends and catch up with their latest development.

Was there really a "team A and team B" situation among judges under Eusoff Chin?

Oh, ada (yes). He had his blue-eyed boys who could support or ampu (flatter) him. So if you don't ampu him, of course you are out of his favour.

Are you saying that those who did not ampu Eusoff Chin were put in a cold storage?

Something like that. Don't get certain privileges. But I did not really mind missing the privileges. As long as I do my work properly, I don't care about those things.

Is it safe for me to say that you were put in cold storage while working under Eusoff Chin?

Yes, definitely. I was put in cold storage because probably I did not ampu him. I'm not the ampu type. When I was with Tun Suffian, Raja Azlan, Saleh Abas and Hamid Omar, I never ampu (them). Yet they treated me alright.

So, I suddenly cannot change and start to ampu someone just for the sake of getting a promotion. I will not be a "yes man" to get promotion. What is wrong, is wrong. If I think they are wrong, I would tell them. That is what they don't like.

If Eusoff Chin was not the Chief Justice, do you think your position would be higher?

There is a possibility. Because I was the most senior judge in the Court of Appeal. I wasn't promoted but I don't care.

Were there senior lawyers who came and told you that you should have been up there?

Yes so many of them came to me and say just that. But I told them it's all in the hands of God. You see when I joined the service in 1963, I had never thought that I'd reach this level. I thought, the most, I'd reach the solicitor-general level and retire at age 55. So when I was elevated, I thank Allah for the rezeki (reward).

The second elevation to the Court of Appeal was a bonus to me. I was fated to retire at that level and I accept it graciously. I accept it as fate that Lamin Yunus, who was my deputy at the criminal division at the AG's chambers, was made the Court of Appeal president. I felt no animosity towards Lamin and in fact I told him that I do not resent the fact that he was the president (of the Appellate Court).

But I expected him to understand us but he did not. I don't know whether he truly did not understand us or he did not want to understand us. Maybe he always wanted to " ampu " Eusoff Chin. That may be it but I don't know for sure.

How was Lamin as the Court of Appeal president? How was the rapport between the judges and him?

He was alright but .... he... I don't know whether I can say that he was a good head of the Appeals Court. Because he likes his own way and will not like it if you object. I raised objections several times so he did not like it. Well that's just too bad. Because I have to say what was needed to be said. At meetings, for example, when I feel something is wrong, I will say so.

Did he practise any favouritism like Eusoff?

Yes, but not as bluntly like the other person (laughs) The other one very clear.

Do you know why former judges Visu Sinnadurai and Syed Ahmad Idid suddenly decided to retire?

Datuk Visu actually resigned because he did not want to accept a transfer to Tawau (Sabah). He did not want to go to Tawau but when he told Eusoff Chin, he insisted that he goes. In fact I and a few others persuaded him not to resign and go to Tawau first for maybe about a year then maybe he could come back here. I said it would not be so bad for him as he is a bachelor. But he said he had enough with being pushed around too much.

What about Syed Ahmad Idid?

It's because of the petition.(against Eusoff and his cronies' alleged corrupt practices) whether they had any proof that he did it. He did not come out with a statement that he did it, but he did not deny it either... Somehow everybody seems to know that he did it. I remember the petition was distributed during the judges' conference in Langkawi, I think. But I and a few others got it in KL.

What did you think after you read it? What was the talk among judges?

We feel that the petition should have been investigated because there are some substance to what he says. It should have been investigated but unfortunately, the authorities decided to investigate him instead.

This seems to be the trend nowadays where the accuser is being investigated rather than the accused.

Allegations must always be investigated and if it is proven to be wrong, then only the accuser can be investigated.

This is the first of a three-part series of interviews with former Court of Appeals judge Shaik Daud Mohd Ismail. More tomorrow and Friday.