Malaysiakini: What's the future of democracy in this country?

Musa: One of the problems of free, open democratic systems is this. There might be too many political parties as to confuse the population. This is not an anti-democracy statement: it is one of the problems. Nevertheless, I hope in Malaysia there will be a reasonably strong group of political parties in the opposition to give people a choice.

Continuous dominance also tends to have the possibility that those in power take support for granted and are less sensitive to rights and wrongs. Rights and wrongs as people perceive it to be, not rights and wrongs as they perceived it to be.

On one hand, I made suggestions about Umno: there needs to be correction and the return to a back-to-basic attitude. On the other hand, hopefully this thinking could spread within the Barisan. Then we could stay in power, why not. I'd like to see people and groups who can give contra views so we could have better representation.

Malaysiakini: Malaysia, like it or not, is still beholden to racial politics. Do you see any light at the end of the tunnel?

Musa: I think there has been a considerable amount of decrease in racial politics. I got into politics in 1960 something. And then went on to 1969, the riots, and even after that. I would tell you: if two boys - one Chinese, one Malay - were playing marbles, they fought, the parents would become involved, and it would become racial.

If there was an accident in Terengganu, where there was a Malay, you happened to be non-Malay, then you would be in trouble. Or the other way round: A Malay could be driving in a Chinese area. More important, any demonstration of any nature in Kuala Lumpur or Penang would always turn racial. Even if they were against the government, they would burn the Chinese shops.

If the reformasi movement and demonstrations could be given any significance in terms of Malaysian politics - if there is anything that I could unhesitatingly come to a positive conclusion - it never turns racial. It's amazing. In the old days, people would be afraid of it turning racial.

To me the reformasi movement is significant. It is more issue-based than racial. I'm fascinated.

Malaysiakini: What do you make of the government's claim that the demonstrators are prone to rioting?

It's a matter of how to discourage or how to prevent. This is a matter of tactics, could be right or could be wrong, I don't know. If the government said it might be, I don't know. I'm not here to probe or to prove. But at least in the old days there is always those elements who came in to stir it up to their interests. I'm not privy to government information now. On the one hand, it is possible. On the other hand, it could be purely tactical.

But if you consider this as political, as indeed it seems to be, because KeADILan is a political party, Umno is a political party, well, I would just laugh at it, "Ah, it could a political gimmick, one side or the other."

Malaysiakini: Have you ever thought of going back to active politics?

Musa with his six-year-old son, Hanif.


Musa: No. Because I don't think I would survive to begin with [laughs]. Politics need not necessary depend on the goodness of the man, but more on the ability of the man on whether he could sustain his power base.

Malaysiakini: There is talk that when (Deputy Prime Minister Abdullah) Badawi comes to power, he would bring you back in government.

Musa: I don't know. They are free to speculate on this. I maintain that with Mahathir in power, I'm playing a role in government. With Badawi in power, if he feels that I need to play a role in government, I would. But I want to state this clearly: I have no intention of standing for elective office and to be in active politics. Don't forget I'm old. We need young blood.

Malaysiakini: Many young blood vying for the Supreme Council positions are, for the lack of a better word, Musa's men.

Musa: [Laughs] To begin with I was Mahathir's man, and I'm still Mahathir's man, up to a point. There are lots of them who have been together with me, most of them. Many of them were taken in during my time, on my recommendation or when I talent-spotted them. But they have become very independent on their own.

You see, when each one of those young politicians first came into the party, I always give them a lecture, "Once you're in politics, remember you could be prime minister or you could just drop by the wayside, peddling bicycles from one place to another. If you think that way, you will be able to retain your credibility and respect since you don't bother about being a big shot all the time. Don't be interested in material benefits or status in the party."

I also tell them, "Soon, maybe or later, you will oppose me. I'll welcome that as long as it is based on issue." In the process, many of them had been against me. I accept that in good spirit.

Malaysiakini: You're one of the few who know Mahathir well.

Musa: As the Americans would say, you bet.

Malaysiakini: When will he go?

Musa: I'm not prepared to venture further than to hold on to what he recently said, that it was going to be his last elections, assuming that he sticks to his word. I have never heard him to be as definite as he is and his body language seems to be serious enough. It could be anytime in the next few years, before the next elections.

Malaysiakini: Where did you and (former deputy prime minister) Anwar (Ibrahim) go wrong?

Musa: I don't know about Anwar. With me, it's very simple. The thing that went wrong was that I hold too dearly to the democratic principle of collective responsibility and effectiveness as a member of the government. Once I found that I was not able to be effective and the prime minister had no confidence in me, well you go. The prime minister had no confidence in me. Thank you. I go.

Malaysiakini: But you did keep your peace with Mahathir.



Musa: No, no. As a democrat, there is such as a thing as disagreement in politics. My friendship with Dr Mahathir is there. He knows he cannot buy me. He knows that he cannot tell me what to do. Politically, he knows about my disagreements. But the friendship is there.

Of course, a lot of ministers, higher officials, private sector people are always confused. Because they are always looking for signals from Dr. Mahathir: Does he love him, or does he hate him? It always confuses them for as far as Dr Mahathir's treatment of me, sometimes it's up, sometimes it's down.

When he makes little comments like: "Well, you can't trust Musa-lah. He is no good." Everybody runs around saying: "Oh, he hates him," and the newspapers start attacking me or blacking me out. The businessmen would keep away from me, you know, a bit scared. But the next minute, Mahathir said: "Why don't ask Musa today?" Then they said: "Ooh, he loves him." I always tease the press: "I'm sorry that you're utterly confused."

Of course, he is displeased with me more time than not - politically - for what I said. In one instance, in my conversation with him when we were one-to-one, I asked him: "What is it that you complained about me?"

He said: "Oh, I was only displeased with you once."

"Oh, that's good, when?" I asked.

"When the economic downturn took place, you accused me or the government to be in a 'denial state'."

I said: "No, no, no, in a 'denial syndrome'." [laughs].

"Yes, yes," he said.

I said: "Yes, it's true. At that time you were denying that the situation existed like this. But I want to tell you, if I'm wrong, nothing would go wrong. But if you're wrong, as prime minister, the country will suffer."

I do argue with him and he seems to accept it in the right spirit. He will not keep me in the government, but he does listen. I would like to think, this should be the way politics should be conducted. They all should talk to one another.

Malaysiakini: Talking about that, isn't it one of the problems in Malaysia that there is very little feedback. The media bear part of the blame. How can the situation be changed? You, as the head of the commission, can make recommendations in terms of changing the laws.

Musa: There are things which we can suggest to change. But culture and psychology is difficult to change. In a democratic society - and I do believe that democracy is the best means of governance - you must encourage criticism and be open.

Malaysiakini: A lot of journalists would say that they cannot be open because of restrictive laws.

Musa: I don't accept that.

Malaysiakini: You don't?

Musa: I don't accept that. If you really believe in the cause, you do it. But, of course, the reality is that there is what we call the periuk nasi, their own bread and butter.

You see, the reality of the press is that a lot of the so-called mainstream press, as a matter of fact, do belong to the party in power, either the party or groups within the party. So naturally, they are what they are.

But whether they want to be accepted or widely read, will depend on how they report. If they lose credibility, fewer people will buy, boycott or no boycott. They will not look at it. That explains the phenomenon of Malaysiakini.com. I heard about you through reputation: "Why don't you look," they said. And I look, I like it.