Malaysiakini: What do you hope to achieve in your two-year term as commission head?

Musa: Yes, it is a two-year term. Frankly, I'm not happy with that because, as I joked with the officials that by the end of my term, we might be able to just get tables and chairs, you know how slow government machinery works.

But having said that, firstly, I would like to establish recognition and awareness among the population, government and all other institutions that we are here to stay. Secondly, I would like to see we establish the maximum position of credibility and confidence from the people. And thirdly, I would like to establish a system of work where people can easily talk to us, and a system of inquiry. That's much already. It's amazing how time passed.

Malaysiakini: But you can be re-appointed for another two years.

Musa: Yes. But let me tell you that I advised the members of the commission in this way: "I would like to remind you that your term is only two years. I would like you not to regard this as employment and means of income. Because if you do that, you will be so pre-occupied of wanting to be re-employed and let other priorities fall by the wayside."

Malaysiakini: What exactly is the allowance?

Musa: Something like RM5,000, RM6,000.

Malaysiakini: I heard that there is a car thrown in as well.

Musa: Yes, I think there is a car. I better don't comment on this. I did not ask how much I'm getting.

Malaysiakini: But you need to be transparent about all this.

Musa: Yes, Yes. I've not been giving this much attention. It was the others: "Hey, what we're getting? Oh, is that so?"

Malaysiakini: Will the commission be independent?

Musa: The commission will be independent in the sense that we are not trying to please anybody. We will be independent from the government as well as the NGOs. We are not going to be told by anybody what to do.

Malaysiakini: But you can't deny that you will face a lot of pressures.



Musa: My dear friend, life is full of pressures. If you think that life is no pressures, it's in the other world, in syurga. I'm already feeling the pressure. I'm having a nice life, enjoying the company of my three grandsons and my son. There are more phone calls now. More criticisms. We will take it in our stride. We will strive to be independent. Definitely.

For example, in the case of (former police chief) Rahim Noor beating of (former deputy prime minister) Anwar Ibrahim, it would have come to the commission instead of forming a new one. In order that we come to the right conclusion, we have the powers to summon witnesses. It's like a court of law.

Malaysiakini: Will you conduct your inquiry out in the open?

Musa: Yes, I insist on transparency. There is nothing secret about what we do.

Malaysiakini: Now coming to Umno politics, your speech in Johor Baru criticising the party leadership has been widely discussed. What prompted you to made the speech? ("[#9]Change yourself before you're changed[/#]")

Musa: The main thing that prompted me is of course the results of the last elections. I feel that there are lots of things that have not been said. Lots of people feel this way or that, but nobody wants to, or could be bothered, or dared to say it. I said, "What's wrong?" I said it.

Malaysiakini: What reaction did you get from those whom you criticised?

Musa: In the first place, those in government - the ones whom I targeted, in another words, the leadership - I sent each one a copy of the speech with a very simple note, "I'm enclosing herewith my speech in Johor Baru, I hope it could be used as food for thought and would not be interpreted negatively."

I sent it to (Prime Minister) Dr Mahathir (Mohamad), Khalil Yaacob, minister of information, deputy prime minister (Abdullah Badawi), and (Finance Minister) Daim Zainuddin and whoever whom I thought was necessary. Not all, I was quite selective.

A lot of people said, "You're so brave."

"No," I said, "I was not being brave, I was saying the obvious."

I keep on telling these leaders whom I meet that I was expressing common-sense views.

Malaysiakini: Does it not bother you that there are so few people who dare speak out?

Musa: It bothers me. It bothers me very seriously. For months, I was hoping somebody would say the same. There was none. I have been taking to a lot of young leaders. I said, "Look, what's happening?"

I expressed similar views in an interview with Utusan Malaysia. There was this short span of liberalism in Utusan when they interviewed me. When the article came out, lots of people got excited. "It's wonderful that you have said them." So I do know that within the rank and file, they shared the same feelings.

For me, maybe it is easier: I have no vested interest. I don't owe the government anything. I don't have contracts or licences. I went to my hometown. There was a party function. It was just a cawangan (branch) meeting. It was amazing even during heavy rain as I spoke, there were claps and claps and claps. Spontaneous. Which convinced me that they feel that.

There is talk about wanting to have an injection of new blood in the Supreme Council of Umno. I would like to think this is the result of the speech. I'm told that the speech has been printed and reprinted. I'm happy.

Malaysiakini: There appears to be surprisingly quite a lot of new faces being nominated for the Supreme Council. This may not be the case with the top leadership.

Musa: There are those whom I hope would come in. I call them non-government, not non-government organisations, but non-government candidates. In other words, those who don't hold office. I'd like to see them come in. The more outspoken they are, the better it is. If you're in government, you tend to try to please the leaders. It should not be. Of course, I hope those who are elected would not become like that.

Malaysiakini: In a nutshell, what needs to be done for Umno in order to reverse its fortunes?

Musa: I think there should be a greater sense of participation and contribution. What is the contribution? Ideas. Talk freely. Lots of people always joke, "Musa was famous for his balik kampung speech". Don't forget that the villages are where we came from. Go back to them. Remember our origins.

On the same spirit, with Umno, go back to the original way. Umno was the most democratic party. The branches and divisions would speak. The leaders would be squirming in their seats. You could see in those days some of the leaders would be puffing away nervously because they were being "attacked". They were attacked on principle, performance. One even cried. This is part of the process of democracy. The harsher the criticism, the better it is. If you're criticised for your bad performance, you don't deserve to be there.

Malaysiakini: Do you think Umno could be what it used to be?

Musa: I think it could.

Malaysiakini: With the current leadership?

I'm not saying that [laughs]. There are a lot of good people down there. But at the moment, the political culture does not allow them to contribute. I believe that the leadership gives the cue. In many developing countries, there exists the "awesome power of the incumbent". In a developing society, the leader leads. In a developed society, the leader is led.

Malaysiakini: Can Badawi deliver?

Musa: It was argued that Mahathir has been so strong, if he goes, there is nobody to lead the country. My answer is yes. If you argued that way, you only encourage those with strong personality to stay on and on and on, for life.

Please do not expect the next man to be a replica of the previous man. There are possibilities of cloning but my God, what a horrifying thought if the world were to adopt the system. Let the next man be in his own right. The important thing is whether he can deliver. And the more important thing is that if he cannot deliver, there is a system whereby we can ask him to go. You know, we should not be in a situation where we are completely beholden to one personality.

So I'm optimistic in this sense. When Dr Mahathir took over the government, lots of people doubted him for A, B, or C reasons. But he has turned out for what he is. Very few people are prepared to publicise it, but he has done a lot. A great deal. He has delivered on a lot of things. And I think one has to appreciate that. Of course, he has his own weaknesses that we don't like. I disagree with him. It is a very well-known fact.

But he is the prime minister. As far as I'm concerned, the party still has him. You can make all sorts of accusations about how he stays there. But that's politics. He is still the leader of the party. As long as he is the leader of the party, and if he wins - assuming the party wins the elections - he becomes the prime minister. So in that sense he has a high degree of credibility of being there.

And one of the things that one has to appreciate in Malaysia, not withstanding allegations of fraud - which I don't think has reached a level which is considered serious - the ballot is still secret. That's why you got lots of opposition members. That should be our preoccupation: to make sure that the ballot remains secret.

In politics, there are all sorts of tactics which are ethical and not ethical, which are proper or not proper, but again the fact of the matter is that there is this basic thing about the secrecy of the ballot and freedom of speech. I know there are restrictions on the press and expression of opinion, but if you visit any part of the country, any night, you'd hear thousands of people listening to the leadership being bashed left, right and centre.

All we need to is this: we need to improve the situation. If good, we want to be better. If better, we want the best. I don't know whether there is such a thing as "best" in politics, but we want to do better, to the best of our ability.

So the next leader could be anybody. I personally had said publicly I wish it is Abdullah Badawi, but let us see. At the same time I will have no hesitation to say, "Abdullah Badawi is no good, Abdullah Badawi should go".