Q&A: Self-regulate booze sales please!

Selangor state executive councilor Ronnie Liu is currently under severe attack from Pakatan Rakyat colleagues from PAS and those from Barisan Nasional over his role in the ‘beer raid' controversy in Shah Alam late last month.

Last Thursday, Liu spoke to Malaysiakini on the matter and believes that it was a multi-faceted misunderstanding by the Shah Alam Municipal Council (MBSA) and the politicians.

Below are excerpts of the interview:

Malaysiakini: Please describe how you got involved in the beer controversy.

Ronnie Liu: Two officers from MBSA went to a 7-11 outlet in Section 8, Shah Alam to confiscate beer worth more than RM600.

Beer means beverage which does not contain more than 8.8 percent alcohol. This is a legal definition...under the Excise Act 1976. I'm made to understand that this Act existed since the British colonial era. After that the Alliance government continued this law and all states used the same law.

From a religious point of view, probably it is different.

In Bahasa Malaysia, there is no word for liquor. Beer is just a direct translation. Muslims might not understand this term. But the non-Muslims will be able to differentiate beer from liquor. Beer is defined as a ‘minuman keras' (hard drinks). There isn't a more accurate description.

Under the Act, the sale of liquor requires permit or license that is issued by the District Office. Every district office has an advisory board consisting of not more than five advisors, consisting of notable locals and civil servants. This method has been used until today. But there is no need to license the sale of beer in any state.

Because of this, what happened with MBSA was a misunderstanding of the powers of the city council. When they received a direction from the licensing director, they may have thought they had the authority (to seize the beer), but they didn't.

When I asked the licensing director, he said he knew that he didn't have the authority (to order the raid), and he admitted he made a mistake, but he said he acted because of pressure from several local councilors, which he refused to name.

What is clear is that there was no instruction from the mayor, the deputy mayor or the council secretary. He made the decision alone. Appeals from the councilors cannot be deemed as orders. So there was some mistake on the part of the licensing director.

This is the first time this has happened. So we advised him never to repeat this again. He agreed the solution following the raid was to return the confiscated goods and inform the 7-11 outlet that it was a mistake. I am made to understand the goods were returned the same day.

Some still insist that you ‘interfered'...

I managed to contact the deputy mayor (on that day) and he agreed to meet me that day. After that, four councilors, the licensing director and one of the officers who conducted the raid came to meet me at my office for discussions.

From there, I found out that it was a personal decision made by the licensing director. So it is unfair to say that I ‘interfered'. It is my right as a executive council member to give councilors and civil servants advice on government policy and point out their mistakes.

Did someone complain to you?

I was informed by the press that the raid was conducted. I felt at the time that the incident was serious and I immediately conducted investigations.

Why is it taking so long to come up with the new guidelines?

That is because we have to take into account the sentiments of all groups. Selangor is a diverse state in terms of religions and lifestyle. It is difficult for us to come out with a guideline (to satisfy all). When the new guidelines are out, it should be practical and acceptable to all.

How is the progress of the new guidelines? Are you confident it will satisfy everyone?

It is complicated to come up with a consensus, but it is our duty to try in order for us to be better administrators of the state. There is no guideline that can be ‘borrowed' from other states. So we can't rush the formulation of the new guidelines.

I have just seen a draft and I think it will still take a while (to finalise the guidelines). But what has been announced by the Menteri Besar (Khalid Ibrahim) so far - that all convenience shops to practice self-regulation.

There is self-regulation in other industries such as gaming industries, cybercafés and hotels. All industries have their basic guidelines, but none that can be considered comprehensive. Self-regulation is a positive step and it is effective.

For example, though these are just my personal opinions, convenience stores can always ask for proof of age or religion. Perhaps, convenience stores could also decide not display the alcoholic beverages and only produce it upon demand.

So self-regulation can be done. There are many more examples. For now, there are supposed to be notices stating that those below the age of 18 or Muslims are prohibited from buying beer.

What do you think of Selangor PAS' suggestion that you should be dropped from the exco or have your portfolio switched?

I must state that my relationship with Hassan Ali (centre) is very good. This incident will not affect our relationship. He is a comrade and a colleague. We will continue to work together.

People who want to take advantage of the situation, such as former Menteri Besar (Dr Khir Toyo), should stop dreaming because we will continue to work together.

Have you discussed the matter with Hassan?

No.

Do you feel surprised by his reaction?

Yes, but I think most likely he was pressured politically and by other groups. I don't know. I feel that this matter is not that serious though it is rather unhealthy. For me, anyone has rights to say that they want. They can state their views and criticise. This is a practice in democracy that I agree with.

But I feel that internal channels would be better in such situations. However, I have no problems if people voice their views publicly.

Don't you feel that the call for your removal as exco was something serious?

It is difficult for me to comment. I'll let the public decide on this and assess me.

Could Hassan's comments be the result of misunderstanding over the role you played in the aborted beer raid?

Maybe. I was said to be ‘interfering'. But this was not true. I only advised because that is my duty and responsibility to inform others of state policy. As long as the new guidelines have yet to be formalised, the sale of beer should remain at status quo.

My job is to ensure that all local councils follow the law. The raid was not legal, as it was not in accordance with the existing by-laws. Furthermore, the decision to return the goods was made by MBSA, not me.

From a political angle, do you believe that it will affect the image of the Pakatan Rakyat government, that it cannot discuss matters internally?

I agree with a statement by Lim Kit Siang (centre), which advised us to engage when we are in an open conflict... this is a positive call. I also thank certain PAS leaders, such as its spiritual leader Nik Aziz Nik Mat. I also thank MCA, Umno and Gerakan leaders who gave positive statements.

But for those who are trying to cause a rift between Pakatan and trying to cause problems between Ronnie Liu and Hassan Ali - and I mean for former menteri besar Khir - please try harder next time. This time, you have failed.

Can you describe your meeting with Selangor PAS Youth last week?

It was a heart-to-heart talk with their delegation. I received a memorandum from them and I tried to give my side of the story. I think they understand what I did was in accordance with the law and I respect the PAS Youth leaders for their efforts in preventing Muslims from consuming alcohol. I understand their position.

But they also know that I have a good relationship with PAS, based on my (past) record, even before we formed the state government. So, they understand that I have no malicious intentions. I think we should have more dialogues like this in the future to understand each other.

I thank them for coming to see me, before they went to the press. That was a good move.

Doesn't Pakatan Rakyat have an internal mechanism to discuss matters?

At the Selangor level, there is a Pakatan secretariat where regular meetings are held. Many crucial decisions and issues are discussed. Now, we just need to strengthen this mechanism. Any issue that is important should be brought to this meeting.

Was the sale of alcohol discussed during such meetings?

Yes, after MBSA suggested that there should be restrictions (on the sale of alcohol). Not just at the Pakatan secretariat level, but there was also a public forum, where NGOs, state reps, local councilors, head of local councils and Muslim leaders were asked to join the forum, which was chaired by Khalid.

During the forum (three months ago), it was decided that status quo should remain, while a new guideline is being formulated.

Part 1
Liu: I had no hand in beer raid
Q&A: Self-regulate booze sales please!

Part 2
'Gangster links' claim a work of fiction
Q&A: I'm no publicity seeker